Engineers with MBAs 5

[ziggi]

Hey all,
I'm a young mechanical engineer just under 3 yrs out of univ. I am seriously considering returning to univ for an MBA, preferably in international business, investments or entrepreneurship. I don't really plan on doing hard sums engineering, I really like project management or investing though.

I've got a few questions,
1) Has anyone out there got their MBA and their engineering degree?
2) Is it worth the time and money to get one?
What sort of jobs are out there for engineers with MBAs?
3) Does the name of the school count for anything?
4) Am I just better off, forgetting about the official education and just learning the stuff myself?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[RDK]

Yes there are lots of us with MBA’s out here. About half my class were hard science types, mostly engineers but some computer science types.

The question of value depends on what you want to do when you finish. If project management is where you want to be then it is worth it IMHO. I have never seen an engineer with an MBA doing anything other than project management.

The name of the school is a tricky question. IMHO the name schools have a name because their graduates are usually successful. Therefore they attract the top candidates and these candidates are successful.

Is the reason that the top schools are successful because they are somehow better or because they start off with the top candidates in the first place. Also these top schools tend to have well established alumni networks, a top school graduate will tend to hire other graduates of the same school and groom them to be successful. This is because they are top candidates and also because making fellow graduates of his/her school help validate their own sense of self worth.

Top schools having the top graduates becomes in large part a self fulfilling prophesy.

I’d go to the best school that I could taking into account all circumstances, family, residence and marks.

Official education will do three things that the school of hard knocks does. Firstly it will ensure a complete mastery of the spectrum of knowledge, without any glairing holes. Secondly it will give you three letters behind your name that proves that you know something. Others may know this same knowledge but they will have to prove it over and over again.

Finally it will put you in contact with many other people who will soon be managers in many different fields in their own rights. Never underestimate the value of a large file of contact names.

Formal education will also get you there quicker.

I have always said that the purpose of an education is not to grant higher knowledge but to teach you to think like an engineer, manager or whatever. With the school of hard knocks you will be an engineer with some management skills, with an MBA you will be able to think like both an engineer and a manager. (They really do have different thought processes.)

If I had to do it all over again, I’d still get the MBA but would have gone to a different school. (I had the undergraduate marks and GMAT to get into one of Canada’s name schools but was unwilling to quit my job and move for family reasons so I went mostly part time and partly with a leave of absence.)

Good luck.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[14159]

No clue in general, but I know only one engineer who has his MBA. He wishes he would've gotten what he calls a "real master's degree." In his opinion (and my observations too, for what they're worth), his MBA didn't do squat for him. I doubt that this is always true, just my limited experience.

14159

 

[ScottyUK]

If you can achieve it, consider getting some work experience as an engineer first before you set out to be a manager of engineers. You'll have a lot more credibility in their eyes if you at least understand what they are doing, even if the detail is blurry. Too many people (in the UK at least) become managers too early in their careers, before they have any experience of anything else. On the whole they make lousy managers as a result because they can't relate and don't understand. The books don't teach those elements too well.



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One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

 

[IRstuff]

To add to Scotty's comments, you'll also get a little more respect from your team if you've been an engineer. Additionally, if you've gotten sufficient experience, you can do a better job of calibrating each engineer's estimation abilities and will have better idea of when they've missed something or padded something.

TTFN

 

[GregLocock]

So, is there a typical minimum age for an engineering manager or supervisor? (I'd guess 32)

Would it be worth having an MBA long in advance of that age, or would you be better served gaining engineering experience? (I have no great thoughts on that, but must admit I'd be inclined to get a thorough engineering grounding first).

Unlike many other posters here I don't believe that my upervisor or manager /has/ to be a good engineer (or even an engineer), I'm happy to work for a good manager. However I don't believe that engineering degree+MBA automatically =good manager either.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[toiap]

I have an MBA in addition to my BSEE. I decided to go part time for the MBA while working full time. It took me a little longer, but I got one of my previous employers to pay for it.

If you want to work on Wall Street, or move quickly into an executive level position, go for the big name school full time. If you want to enhance your skills, with the option of moving into other areas of the company, part time at a local university works well.

The MBA does not teach management skills. It teaches you the business side of business - finance, accounting, HR, marketing, business law, etc. It also shows employers that you are willing to put in some extra effort and expand your knowledge. It does not make one a better manager of people. This is a skill that is learned by observing others and by doing it yourself.

I am very glad I got my MBA. It has opened up doors for me within my chosen field. I have been assigned jobs that I do not believe I would have had the opportunity to work on had it not been for my MBA. I also hope to use it for my own buisiness someday. I have also gained knowledge to see and understand why certain business decisions are made. IMHO it has rounded out my skill set. I also believe it has benefited me in my paycheck.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

 

[ziggi]

Thank you for all your posts,
I don't really plan on being a manager of engineers, I would consider it if the opportunity arises though. If that is the case I learn't long ago that you have to listen to the oldsters and apply their advice and you have to watch the youngins to make sure they're not getting stuck in logjams.
I am much more interested in the actual business education that an MBA gives me. Ideally I'd love to get into international market analysis, international real estate investment or international stocks and derivatives investing. That or start my own business, probably in import/export. Unfortunately I'm not sure which field to go into, other that it has to be internationally focused and I'm hoping that an MBA can help me to remove some options.
The schools I am aiming for are all top Canadian schools and I have the marks to get into them. I had some American schools in mind but lack of money and a wife whom is returning to school have removed that option.

 

[ScottyUK]

Greg,

Early thirties is where the bad managers originate. Add ten years to that and you find the makings of a better class of manager. They have double the time in the working environment, double the experience and possibly triple the experience at a senior level when compared to the thirty-odd variety. Age also lends a degree of credibility all by itself, for right or for wrong. I'm not saying that people in their thirties are inherently going to be poor managers, just that they would almost always make better ones if they weren't promoted to manager level until they were in their forties.





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One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

 

[RDK]

I have to second ScottyUK’s post about having some work experience before the MBA.

We had two types in my class, those of us with between 2 to 20 years experience and those we called “pipe liners” who came direct from an undergraduate degree with only student work experiences flipping burgers.(i.e. directly out of the educational pipeline)

The pipe liners were only interested in getting a passing grade, the experienced people were interested in getting an education.

The experienced people tended to have better grades than the pipe liners.

The pipe liners were surprised at the conduct of the cases where ethical and office politics were a concern. They could not believe that people could be so unethical. The experienced people would come up with personal experience stories that mirrored or topped those in the cases.

The pipe liners were themselves less ethical in class. I would never by choice share a group project with a pipe line, they would not pull their weight, complain about meeting late into the night, steal your ideas and pass them off as their own. The experienced people would try to do more than their share, willingly meet as often as needed whenever needed, had their work done and actually pass credit on to someone else.

The pipe liners would not be prepared for class, never fully caught up in the reading assignments, the experienced people would have all the assigned reading done, most of the optional reading and would have done some additional reading on t heir own before class.

It all comes down to maturity and the fact that the experienced people were giving up more to be there and wanted more out of it.


I would in fact get some experience before any master’s degree not only an MBA but a MSc or MEng as well.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ziggi]

I used to be one of those slackers, when I came out of univ. What will prevent me from being one if I go back?
The fact that it costs a fortune is one thing, and the fact that I actually want to be there is another.

The office politics thing is still a surprise to me in some cases, the world isn't as rosy a place as elementary and secondary school paints it to be.

Anyway I plan on doing well and actually learning something useful, as well as the confidence to setup a business venture (it's a good excuse to travel). But thats all hearsay and speculation until I actually go there.

BTW are the hours as tough and as long as they say, it looks like theres only 15 hours of lectures a week, homework and labs would add alot, but I assume that it can't be much tougher than engineering (24 hrs of lectures with plenty of homework, for a total of about 50 to 60 hours per week)

 

[wes616]

The pipe liners were only interested in getting a passing grade, the experienced people were interested in getting an education.

This was my experience in my undergrad.... (as I took a couple of years off between year 3 and 4... when I came back I was much more interested in "learning" than "passing". I actually didn't care if I passed or not, as long as learned.... which strangly made my grades improve.

Take some time and work... it doesn't need to be in engineering, but engineering pays pretty good (for now anyway).

Wes C.
------------------------------
There are no engineers in the hottest parts of hell, because the existence of a 'hottest part' implies a temperature difference, and any marginally competent engineer would immediately use this to run a heat engine and make some other part of hell comfortably cool. This is obviously impossible.

 

[CuSO4]

hrm.. this is quite like my situation. next year, I am to head to uni possibly to complete either a double degree in International business and Bachelor of Business or just a Bachelor of Business.

Recently, I've been extremely facisinated with engineering, mostly the mechanical side of things (work on the hydrogen combustion engine, using technology to find ways to cut greenhouse gas emissions, sustainable living etc.) With this, it made me think whether or not I should take up mechanical engineering as a double degree with business or take the engineering degree after the business studies. I thought maybe I could use the engineering degree to gain experience and contribute by conceptualising-manufacturing new technology and to continue engineering as a hobby when I am headed for retirement...

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[jsummerfield]

I am sure that class work in organizational behavior is worth while. Almost any type job that you can think of exists for engineers with and without an MBA. Three years of engineering is a good starting point to begin the MBA. A Harvard MBA permits networking with high rollers who don't attend classes in northwest Timbuktu. Formal education is important. Also learn stuff by yourelf.

I do not have an MBA.

John

 

[RDK]

The time commitment for an MBA is about the same as in undergraduate engineering.

You will have between 15 to 20 hours a week of formal class and need about 3 hours outside class for every one inside class for around 70 to 80 hours a week.

Same as an engineering undergrad or same as I usually work on a construction project.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ziggi]

Thanks Rick,
It sounds like I won't have a problem with the coursework then, I'm going to be taking it full time and my wife will be back in school then (she has about 60 hours per week) so I figure I'll have plenty of uninterrupted time to study.

As for time spent on a construction project, I suppose if its your own company then 80 hours is the norm, it seems that most business owners live at their place of business.
Personally I wouldn't mind spending 80 hours per week working on something if I had a personal stake in it.


John,
I considered Harvard for a bit, but I don't like the courses they offer. York U's IMBA program looks like the one I will be choosing.

 

[GregLocock]

I think 3 years prior experience is a bit lean, that's only one real job, typically.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ziggi]

I've been through two already, I was laid off from the first one.

 

[dave472005]

Ziggi - I elected to get a Masters of Science in Management of Technology - instead of an MBA. The reasons are 2 fold

* did not want to take the time to get the undergraduate business classes that were a requirement for the MBA program - also doing this while working full-time - wanted to limit the overall time dealing with this.

* did not see the benefit to the MBA - in fact saw some limitations as an engineer. The combination of management and engineering seemed to be more of a natural fit for my professional capabilities.

- the other reason for the masters - was so that I could teach at the university level - in hind sight - it was problable the main driver, but the other reasons were why I choose the program I did.

Best of luck.

Dave

 

[macmet]

Ziggi,

I'm sure you are looking for first hand experience regarding this topic and I'm only a young engineer so I have none. But, my father is also an eng and my entire life I have been told to work for a while and then go back for an MBA. He is hell bent on convincing me to work until about 35 then go back for an MBA. I still hear about it almost everyday.

Just thought I'd get that info in.

Also, I'm around the Toronto area and I have heard that York's int'l business is excellent.