'Enthusiasm' or 'Knowledge' ? 9

[QAFitz]

I watched an article about a developing country where the meals were delivered to the poor, by the poor and needy. Don't quote me, but on the average a couple million meals were served with only 4 or 6 mistakes made. When they talked about the hiring practices a statement was made that "enthusiasm" was preferred more than "knowledge".

I'm looking for some ideas:
How do you define "enthusiasm"?
How do you determine genuine "enthusiasm"?
How do you measure genuine "enthusiasm"?

 

[MadMango]

To me a work place definition of enthusiasm would be the combination of having the initiative to do something that is not asked and actually caring that you did a good job.

Genuine enthusiasm would be doing the above without regard for brownie points, face time, or ladder climbing.

As for measuring it, I don't think there is a metric for it. You'll have to use your powers of observation.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[QAFitz]

I agree (so far) MadMango.

Lets throw it into the hiring scenario where basically all you have is the first power of observation. Prior employers can be called, however in this age of legal positioning the only question they have to answer is did they work there.

I'm looking to hire someone with a high level of enthusiasm. The job is very detail oriented, focuses around material specifications, vendor certifications, customer certifications, review and compliance to Codes and Standards etc. I believe with the right level of enthusiasm the learning curve to teach someone these things is greatly reduced. Unfortunately I've seen people who posses the knowledge, but no drive to excel just because.

 

[TheTick]

Enthusiastic incompetents are never an asset.

Delivering meals sounds like a job nearly anyone with a room temperature IQ can do. There, enthusiasm would be a significant edge.

 

[rbulsara]

Is that hiring for serving meals??

When enthusiasm becomes more important than knowledge, it means that pay is not commensurate with the hard work you are going to put in. It may be fine for charity type of work, not for engineering. (Mind you this is an engineering forum).

 

[whisperingpines]

fitz


I think I understand the context of what you have described. It would be to do a task with your heart open. I have heard it all my life: "when you really love or believe in something you will be great at it".

I have tried (with no success) to be this person, but the fact that I am attempting, demostrates (to me) things have been learned during my stumble through life.

 

[KENAT]

I've had enthusiastic interns that weren’t very knowledgeable (and didn’t seem to learn very fast).

I’ve had knowledgeable interns that weren’t that enthusiastic.

The former got lots done, wrong or poorly, which I and others then had to correct.

The latter got less done, but most of it was OK and didn’t take a bunch of time to tidy up.

So I prefer the latter out of the two options.

The best interns have both in reasonable quantities though and most importantly, the ability to learn fairly quickly.

I know you’re talking permanent staff not interns, but I’d think there was some read across. I have to agree with rbulsara last paragraph on this one.


KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[Ron]

rbulsara...excellent point. It is why our profession gets less respect than it deserves. Non-engineering managers do not care about technical competence...they assume all are the same...they care about how you "look", meaning how you act, how you present yourself, and whether you look busy most of the time.

 

[737eng]

I think that personality (which could include enthusiasm) and smarts (which may not be actual knowledge of actual job) are the key to hiring. If you hire a smart person who fits in with your current culture, you can easily teach them the job.

However, you can hire the person with the most knowledge about the particular job and that person not have a personality that fits in with the group and have troubles.

 

[bf109g]

"When enthusiasm becomes more important than knowledge, it means that pay is not commensurate with the hard work you are going to put in."

Sounds like a definition of management at large companies. You just gotta look good and make sure that others perceive you as competent. They'll move you around frequently so that you can't cause too much damage or have the secret get out that you're an idiot.

As an engineer, competency trumps enthusiasm any day.

 

[ornerynorsk]

I once had a boss that told me he would hire based on attitude over ability any day, because a good attitude can always be taught the skills. I asked him to please keep those pleasant attitudes in the front office, and the he!! out of my shop. Needless to say, we suffered with high turnover and high maint costs on damaged equipment until he pulled his head out into the sunlight. Theory is great, but real life practicality will always trump the latest fad that's being preached by the socialists in our institutions of "higher learning". My 2 cents.

 

[bf109g]

"When enthusiasm becomes more important than knowledge, it means that pay is not commensurate with the hard work you are going to put in."

Sounds like a definition of management at large companies. You just gotta look good and make sure that others perceive you as competent. They'll move you around frequently so that you can't cause too much damage or have the secret get out that you're an idiot.

As an engineer, competency trumps enthusiasm any day.

 

[IRstuff]

You need to have both. We had a straight-A EE from UC Bezerkley, but he was as motivated as a literal lump on a log. When you gave him assignments he'd get them done, and then he'd go back to his cube to vegetate. Supposedly, he eventually quit to work in the restaurant business.

As with many things in life, balance must be maintained. Someone at either extreme become a problem.

That said, while enthusiam could be a motivational thing, competency might never achieve the desired levels.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MadMango]

I have met many "competent" folks that have never achieved the desired level, but some how continue to avoid the hammer on Black Fridays.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[moltenmetal]

Simple matrix of employees:

smart stupid
motivated

lazy

Obviously smart and motivated is what you want: they not only cover their cost, but they generate a couple salaries' worth of profit for you every year. And of course, they're not so smart that they want you to pay them 2 or 3x the going rate...As the pointy haired Dilbert boss says, "That's the way we like them: bright, but clueless!"

Smart and lazy isn't so bad either: their productivity may be so poor that it only covers their salary, but at least they don't screw up and cost you MORE than their salary.

Lazy and stupid is OK too: at least they ONLY cost you their salary...

Stupid and motivated: these folks can easily cost you 10x their salary in liability. You need to weed these folks out before you hire them as best you can, but if you find out that one has slipped through the recruitment process, you'd better find and FIRE those people QUICK!

 

[bf109g]

Nah - stupid and motivated are quickly removed from the engineering talent pool and are then called "managers."

 

[KENAT]

Where they then reak havoc.

While motivated but stupid is a bit harsh ("but limited in technical ability" or similar might be nicer), I agree these are the type of people that cause me the most hassle.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[bf109g]

Those are the types who argue that "it's OK to cut blind rivets to the required length because a rivet is a rivet and we cut rivets all the time. Can't wait for the right grip length - I'll look bad."

 

[SomptingGuy]

smart stupid vs motivated lazy.

You may laugh, but I was once in a "supervisors" meeting where we were asked to place the other employees in the department on a similar 2D plane. The names were more PC, but they meant the same. I think it was "Company values" vs "Achievement".

- Steve

 

[IJR]

Qafitz

Good question.

Knowledge is not enough. YOu need competence. Competence is the ability to use knowledge.

Competence has something to do with extensive use of common sense.

This somehow explains why professors do not necessarily make good engineers.

If I were a manager, I would surely look for competent people, in the area of my interest.