EPA & Volkswagen 20

[SomptingGuy]

Not convinced at all by the supposed with/without test. An attempted scoop, before any post-fix cars are available to re-test. Besides, a quasi-steady full-load power curve is no more representative of real driving conditions than a federal test.

I'm hoping that most of the auto rags are conducting some transient testing of pre-fix cars, with good objective measures (e.g. 30-50, 50-70 times in various gears). The first load of pre/post economy comparisons will be as reliable as those you read about from the fuel-line magnet believers.

Steve

 

[GregLocock]

IRStuff- sorry I meant this test doesn't do much to prove anything, it may be indicative but mainly it just looks like messing about on a dyno. I don't see how you can run a full throttle test and convince the car it is doing an emissions test, and on the road, I really don't see how you can convince the software it is doing an emissions test and so see what emissions it would run if they simply deleted the 'switch'.

So as far as I can tell without some software or sensor humbuggery the actual back to back tests that people are interested in are not going to be possible with the current software. It would (I think) be trivial for VW to supply such software, perhaps they do not think it would help to do that (and I probably agree-from this point on their agenda is driven by credibility and survival, not appeasing ex-fanbois on the interwebz).

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[MacGyverS2000]

From everything I've read, the car knew it was on the dyno because the front wheels didn't move... seems like a simple enough check of the wheel sensors before shifting into "test" mode. Make the front wheels move with the rear, and you're on "road" mode. Nothing more complicated than that need be done...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[dgallup]

Actually, the Jetta they tested is a front wheel drive car. They ran the test on 2 sets of rollers, on one case the rear wheels turned along with the fronts (the "defeat device" condition) and in the other the rear wheels were stationary. There seems to be a lot of conflicting claims as to what inputs the ECU used to determine when it was running an emissions test. Some have said lack of stealing input, others speed/load cycle but the lack of rear wheels turning would be a pretty clear indication the car is not being driven on the street.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[Lou Scannon]

To be "robust", from a cheating point of view, the algorithm would have to be very capable of detecting an actual emission test, under any foreseeable circumstances.
I wonder if VW did a DFMEA on that... now wouldn't that be incriminating, i.e. on the authors?
Anyway, robustness suggests an OR-ing of all non-real world circumstances.
I.e. IF drive wheels are driving AND

non-drive wheels are stationary OR
steering input is absent OR
ambient temperature is 25C +/- OR
[various systems are disabled or overridden to enable chassis test] OR
...​

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[IRstuff]

Why is there still doubt that they did something that numerous of their executives have already admitted?

Detecting a dyno test isn't that hard, particularly if the car is in Drive, at a set RPM, and there's no forward speed. There are a number of sensors on the car that can easily show that.

TTFN
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[140Airpower]

I think a lack of driver's hands actually steering the car is a dead give-away that the car is not being driven down the road regardless of all other inputs. There is no period longer than a few seconds that the wheel is not turned.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Sounds like a VW brainstorming meeting.

Unfortunately they decided against having a cal indicator light, so we can only speculate what they chose to implement. We'll need to wait for a fired engineer to go public. But only a real nerd would want to know the secret of how to make their car drive like a dog.

Steve

 

[gruntguru]

"Why is there still doubt that they did something that numerous of their executives have already admitted?"

I don't think anyone is questioning that IRsttuff. What myself (and probably others) are doubting, is that the video test above gives any useful information about the likely performance loss when the cars are run in "low NOx" mode.

je suis charlie

 

[SomptingGuy]

An article here: BloombergBusiness is saying that VW will actually need to retrofit SCR systems into some of the European vehicles. That's a non-trivial recall!

Steve

 

[BrianPetersen]

I don't think SCR retrofit was specifically mentioned, only "hardware". Apparently the 1.6 litre engine (most common one in Europe) may require new injectors. The cars that VW sold claiming Euro 6 compliance already have SCR.

 

[waross]

If I intended to implement such a "cheat" I would have the default mode as full pollution control every time the car starts.
I would detect when the car is NOT on a dyno before turning the pollution control off.


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[BrianPetersen]

I don't think anyone outside of VW, probably Bosch, and now EPA/CARB, are privy to the exact logic that was used. It's quite possible that the engine did start and idle and run in that mode until such time as it saw something that wouldn't happen on a dyno and then switched to the other mode. Doesn't make it any more legal, though!

 

[140Airpower]

I think VW and its execs are in such deep doodoo they will disclose everything that can be known about the particulars of the cheat.. unless, this actually was the doings of just a few people. Then it becomes for them to decide what's in their best interest to admit to.

 

[IRstuff]

The rapidity of the CEO's firing seems to indicate that it was a corporate decision. Otherwise, they would have just thrown the few under the bus.

TTFN
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[VEBill]

Another engine, maybe? The EA288.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-diesel-ea288-1.3284334

 

[BrianPetersen]

The media is failing to do their research, as usual. EA288 is the current engine, 2015-on. It already has SCR and it should be fixable by software - which will likely increase AdBlue consumption from their current abnormally-low rate of about 1% of the fuel consumption, to the industry norm of about 3% of fuel consumption, the only side effect being requiring more frequent refills. The EA189, 2009 - 2014 except Passat, is the one with the lean NOx trap (LNT), which is the one that will be a big problem to fix. (The Passat is an EA189, but it has SCR.)

 

[VEBill]

You mean "introduced in 2012" vice 2015?

Was there a Euro 5 version introduced in 2012, and a Euro 6 version from 2015 on? Some German language sources are mentioning 2012. Conflicting info.

E.g. "The engine with the type designation 288 was built in 2012 en masse at Volkswagen..." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_EA288&prev=search]HERE[/url]

edit: actually HERE for the quote, or the Google Translated version.

 

[BrianPetersen]

EA288 came earlier to the European market than to North America and so did the Mk7 Golf and I'm pretty sure they both came to the German market together in the same vehicle (Mk7 Golf). It's possible that some early versions in Europe had a LNT, but I do know that the EA288 is designed to be completely modular and was designed from the outset to have whatever emission control configuration installed that the local market required - which means IF they have to retrofit SCR, it should be a bolt-on. And the Mk7 VW Golf was designed from the outset to include SCR, so even if some early models were built without (which is possible), it should be possible to retrofit. Probably still a rather involved project with lots of stuff to disassemble and then put back together differently - but nothing like installing SCR into an engine never designed to include it in a vehicle that was never designed to have it.

 

[GregLocock]

Won't there also be negative effects on real world performance and mpg on the SCR engines, once they have the correct calibrations running on the road?

Cheers

Greg Locock


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