EPA & Volkswagen 20

[Lou Scannon]

Won't there also be negative effects on real world performance and mpg on the SCR engines, once they have the correct calibrations running on the road?

That wouldn't surprise me. As you know, optimizing for efficiency and performance versus optimizing for emissions tend to push in different directions.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[PJGD]

I would not anticipate a significant negative impact in terms of performance or fuel efficiency for the older LNT engine once upgraded with SCR. To make LNT work, the control system is very complex and typically it compromises the calibration of the engine resulting in drivability and less than ideal fuel consumption. SCR on the other hand can be made to be a stand-alone NOx reduction system that allows the engine calibration to be optimized for performance and SFC but at the expense of high engine-out NOx which the SCR then cleans up once the catalyst gets over ~180°C. This may then result in high urea consumption, say 3% or greater relative to fuel use. Urea is typically cheaper than diesel fuel. There is a balance to be found then between high performance + high EO NOx + high urea consumption + possibly a larger SCR catalyst vs lower performance + lower EO NOx + lower urea consumption + perhaps a lower cost catalyst. What does the customer want and how much will they pay (although in this case, VW will be paying, but can't give less performance than the original car otherwise the class action lawyers will have a feeding frenzy).

PJGD

 

[dgallup]

CEO Matthias Mueller said the investigation so far had revealed that "information was not shared, it stayed within a small circle of people who were engineers."

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[gruntguru]

Rotten bunch those engineers.

je suis charlie

 

[verymadmac]

"information was not shared, it stayed within a small circle of people who were engineers."

You mean the engineers filed all the data away and the managers didn't.

 

[SomptingGuy]

New VW chief executive Matthias Müller:

“We don’t need yes-men, but managers and engineers who make good arguments in support of their convictions and projects, who think and act like entrepreneurs”

“I am calling for people who are curious, independent, and pioneering. People who follow their instincts and are not merely guided by the possible consequences of impending failure.”

Which sounds like "Don't get caught." to me.

Steve

 

[BrianPetersen]

He also needs management that is capable of listening and acknowledging and acting appropriately when the engineers say "no".

 

[verymadmac]

But "Yes Men" are sooooo easy to promote.

management that is capable of listening and acknowledging and acting appropriately when the engineers say "no"

but that would make them unpredictable in the eyes of those above them and cause a possible reduction in near term profit, so they are never going to go far.

The actual problem lies in the current nature of CEO's, this is one part of society where the trickle down effect works really strongly.

 

[dgallup]

Volkswagen creates U.S. diesel emissions claims program

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I did like:

"some attorneys representing Volkswagen plaintiffs said they were concerned that the fund could undermine litigation already underway"

and:

"I’m suspicious and I’m concerned, but I’m open-minded," said plaintiffs’ lawyer Chris Seeger.

Nice to see the lawyers being cut out.

Steve

 

[tbuelna]

What would be the basis for an owner of one of these VW diesels demanding financial compensation for the elevated levels of NOx emissions produced by the vehicle? They weren't made to pay fines for the NOx emissions. There is no evidence they suffered any ill health effects from the higher NOx emissions. And there is nothing preventing them from continuing to operate their vehicles. There would be basis for financial compensation if it is shown that these vehicles did not meet the published fuel mileage from VW. This has happened with other auto OEMs in the recent past. But the compensation was typically just a couple hundred dollars.

A US recall and repair is one likely option for the newer vehicles. A US buyback is more likely for the older, high-mileage vehicles that are not worth modifying. Another option would be for VW to buyback all of these US vehicles and auction them off to private parties that will export them for sale in countries where they meet auto NOx emissions requirements.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I snagged this from one of those vulture sites:

What types of damages are you seeking in the class action?

In our class actions, we seek for each class member the damages they incurred as a result of Volkswagen’s use and concealment of the use of a defeat device in the affected vehicles. Such damages may include:

>> the premium paid over the price of an equivalent vehicle with a gasoline engine;
>> the purchase price of the vehicle;
>> the cost of unused extended warranties;
>> the cost of excess fuel associated with a decrease in efficiency;
>> the cost of future repairs;
>> the loss in value of affected vehicles; and
>> the cost to remediate harm to the environment caused by the excess levels of pollutants released by affected vehicles.

Not sure how the last one is calculated, but the others are at least tangible, if speculative.

Steve

 

[Lou Scannon]

If I had purchased an affected vehicle, I would feel that I got less than I paid for, in these circumstances.
Imagine a corporation investing in a fleet of these vehicles, for PR purposes. I guess they would feel entitled to damages, in these circumstances.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[dgallup]

EU Committee Rejects Real-Driving Emissions Test

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[Panther140]

Its VW.. Its more likely that this stuff just broke unintentionally

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

 

[BrianPetersen]

Both Renault and GM appear to have been "updating" diesel ECU software in Europe on certain vehicles recently.

In the Renault case, apparently some portion of the emission controls was only active if the outside temperature was between 17 C and 35 C. It was always like this, regardless of whether the car was on the dyno or not, which means it wasn't really a "defeat device", but given that the city of Paris is within that ambient temperature range for only a portion of each day for a portion of the year, it kinda renders the real-world operation of the emission controls ineffective.

I suspected from the moment this scandal broke that there was a lot more where this came from, and now the "stealth recalls" are in the works before other manufacturers get officially busted.

 

[Lou Scannon]

In the Renault case, apparently some portion of the emission controls was only active if the outside temperature was between 17 C and 35 C. It was always like this, regardless of whether the car was on the dyno or not, which means it wasn't really a "defeat device"...

I believe this would qualify an an "AECD" in EPA jargon, and require full justification as to why the activity was "windowed out" above and below the defined temperature range. I know Renault doesn't sell on this side of pond any more, but I wonder if the European regulations have an equivalent expectation.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[Panther140]

As I understand it, that GM system might not be an illegal use of AECD.
What details am I missing on their system?

 

[BrianPetersen]

Add FCA (i.e. Fiat in the European market) to the list of manufacturers who are "updating" their ECU software (i.e. conducting a stealth recall).

And, apparently, it has been found that Mercedes shuts down their NOx emission control systems when the ambient temperature is below 10 C.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...a-defeat-device-by-another-name/#4e84f1481891

I cannot think of any reason why the EGR could not be allowed to continue to operate below 10 C.

I also cannot think of any reason why the SCR could not continue to operate below 10 C. AdBlue freezes at something like -13 C and the systems are supposed to be heated to keep them thawed out.

As predicted much earlier ... there's a lot more where this came from.

 

[tbuelna]

That article from Forbes was pathetic. "...a C-Class Mercedes C220 TDi BlueTec was found emitting more than 40 times the amount of cancer-causing NOx than in the lab...."

While M-B may have pushed the limits of compliance with regulations concerning NOx emissions, Forbes' behavior is just as bad by using the term "cancer-causing NOx" in their article. All autos produce some amount of NOx emissions from their operation. But even "40 times the amount of NOx than in the lab" coming from the M-B diesel engine in question, under certain limited operating conditions, is still extremely low compared to NOx emissions from auto engines just a few years ago.

If the small amount of excess NOx emissions produced by these M-B diesel engines poses such a serious "cancer-causing" threat to the health of the general public, shouldn't we also implement an immediate global moratorium on any activity that generates NOx emissions? Should we shut down power plants that use coal or natural gas to generate two-thirds of US electrical power supply? Should we halt all commercial aircraft flights that burn jet fuel and spew huge amounts of "cancer-causing NOx" into the atmosphere every day? Should we immediately halt all freight trains, buses (including school buses), cargo ships, farm tractors/harvesters, or commercial trucks that use diesel fuel, and emit far more NOx emissions on a specific basis than the M-B diesel engine in question?

Why is NOx from one source so much worse of a hazard than NOx from other sources?