ESFR Retrofit Mission Impossible?

[SprinklerDesigner2]

This is the third ESFR I've been offered in the past two weeks.

An existing facility the owner asked if ESFR was possible and while I am sure it isn't I thought I would throw it up here.

Photo of concrete T roof deck.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1797/tbeamesfrcopy.jpg

We use the 2002 edition.

At the site, before I could review, I was thinking maybe the K25 if I could place the head in the center of panel maybe I could if I was able to keep the deflector 17 to 18" below the roof deck, as allowed by 8.12.4.1.2, and positioning in the center of the 4'-0" panel. The building less than 30' allowing 12' spacing to be used and we would be able to comply with Table 8.12.5.1.1 Positioning of Sprinklers to Avoid Obstructions to Discharge (ESFR Sprinkler)

8.12.4.1.2 Pendent sprinklers with a nominal K-factor of 25.2 shall be positioned so that deflectors are a maximum 18 in. (457 mm) and a minimum 6 in. (152 mm) below the ceiling.

But there is section 8.4.6.3* ESFR sprinklers shall be permitted for use in buildings with unobstructed or obstructed construction. Where depths of the solid structural members (beams, stem, etc.) exceed 12 in., ESFR sprinklers shall be installed in each channel formed by the solid structural members. Minimum sprinkler spacing and area of coverage shall comply with the requirements of 8.12.2 and 8.12.3.

The answer is so obvious but I have to ask anyway. It's impossible, right?

 

[TravisMack]

My take is that the building is not compatible with ESFR sprinklers. ESFR systems are great with the flexibility that they allow for storage, but the building essentially has to be built around the sprinkler system.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Travis,

I agree but I had to ask.

 

[stookeyfpe]

You've answered your own question SD2. Sprinklers are required in every channel for the design to be compliant with NFPA 13.

Travis, well said. I'm going to use that statement in some future seminars because it's very accurate.

 

[pipesnpumps]

I also have said that same statement to people, because it is so true..

But someone once corrected me and said you could install a ceiling below the structure, and put the ESFR below that..



Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[TravisMack]

Pipes:

That is true, you can install a ceiling to allow for ESFR, but again, you are modifying the building to allow for the use of the sprinklers. So essentially, the original statement you provided was correct

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[LCREP]

Sprinkler Designer 2

Let hope your competition comes up with the same answer as you did!... GOOD JOB!!!

The miss information on ESFR is simply amazing, it is not like they are new heck they have been with us since what 1988! Folks think just because they have ESFR they can store ANYTHING and ESFR fits all buildings.

Then again that is what keeps my job interesting....lol

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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

LCREP,

I hope you all understand I was 100% sure it couldn't be done but, in the faintest of hope, that maybe someone published an interim or perhaps Factory Mutual came out with something special, I had to ask.

Every time I do an ESFR system I go back to 13 to completely refresh my memory, then I will double check again, because if a mistake is made on one of these there is no way out. If something is found wrong after the installation how do you fix it? Not cheaply, that is for sure.

After the drawings are completed I'll go back and check everything over yet again which drives the owner nuts who doesn't like it, makes him nervous, when I seem unsure of myself. Not so much being afraid but out of respect for these systems and how one seemingly minor mistake has the potential to ruin a good company.

The last ESFR job I did was over 30' with 25' bays and with the way they had lights laid out there wasn't a way. After explaining in detail everything to the architect we had a meeting with the HVAC/electrical and everybody moved to accommodate the sprinkler. Like Travis said I built the system and everything else was built around it.

 

[LCREP]

SprinklerDesigner2

When I start a project with ESFR (I am coming at this from the insurance side) I get everyone into a meeting BEFORE the building is started. Everyone being anyone hanging stuff at the ceiling including the roof supports. I give them a copy of NFPA 13 the sections on obstructions, I also give them a diagram I made up showing how far everything has to be away from the ESFR, etc. etc. I then get everyone to agree that the sprinklers rule and they will install as per NFPA 13 regarding ESFR obstructions.

So when I go back and see all the lights under the ESFR heads, I remind the electrical contractor of our meeting, show him the NFPA 13 stuff he already has, and say MOVE IT. He is not happy I am not popular, BUT he can not say I did not tell you so.

My customer is happy, end of story.


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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!