Estimating a fee for the foundation of a PEMB 2

[onealexis]

How do you all estimate the fee for a foundation design for a pre-engineered building? For example, I have a pre-engineered building which is actually an addition adjacent to an existing building. The building is a total of 8200sf. It has 3 different framing configurations with two of those adjacent to the existing building. The contractor is 'designing his own slab' therefore I will design the foundations independent of the slab system (no hairpins).

We have to design the foundations (concrete columns and footings) and the depth of embedment of anchor bolts. We are provided with the building manufacturer's reactions and anchor bolt plans.

The building is in New York.

To summarize:
Framing Config. A - main frame - outside columns with one line adjacent to the existing building (only 2' between existing building face and new column footings). This area also has one endwall with columns.
Framing Config. B - main frame columns with span twice the length of Config. A. Main frame columns all away from the existing building except for 1 column. 2 endwalls with columns - one of those sets of columns are adjacent to an existing building.
Framing Config. C - 'lean to' framing with an exterior line of columns with the greatest reactions.

If you would like to comment on what your actual design approach or procedure would be as well, feel free.

 

[DaveAtkins]

Estimate your fee for this the same way you estimate it for any other project.

I would calculate the hours for project management, the hours for engineering, the hours for drafting, the hours for a quality review, and the hours for construction phase activities (if any).

DaveAtkins

 

[onealexis]

yes, yes, I understand. I guess I'm asking more of what do others feel would be a reasonable fee or better yet, a reasonable amount of hours for engineering, drafting, project management, QA/QC?

PEMB's are getting to be so common and the construction outfits shop the heck out of foundation designs. They make claims about how low someone else offers to the do the job... and although that can't always matter and you have to let a job go if you can't do it for the same price, I'm also curious what IS reasonable to do a job of this type. What would another engineer estimate the hours to be?

Part of our struggle has been the very time consuming App. D and using it based on anchor bolt spacings that are already set by the PEMB Manufacturer and often require modification of the calcs a reduced d'o, etc. It ends up being very time consuming. Not to mention, horizontal thrusts and then footings with horizontal thrusts and limiting geometry factors (the adjacent existing building).

If someone came to you with this job today, what would you estimate your hours or fee to be?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[vandede427]

For a plain straight forward PEMB, I price it by cents per square foot.

 

[onealexis]

How many cents?!

wow... maybe we are getting carried away on these.

Do you design the length of the anchor bolts as well according to App. D?

 

[JedClampett]

There's no way out of using Appendix D. But there is a problem with that.
The PEMB manufacturer will use baseplates with anchor bolt spacing less than minimum allowed by ACI 318 Appendix D. So you have two choices. You can note, specify and design in every place available that you want the bolt spacing to exceed ACI 318 Appendix D requirements. Or you can wait until submittal and design the bolts based on reduced areas that meet Appendix D.
As far as pricing, we're a large multi-discipline company. But we like to price projects based on sheet count and then convert to dollars based 40 or 50 hours (CAD plus Engineering) per sheet. So assuming a small building, you'd have a General Notes sheet, a plan and maybe a couple of sections and detail sheets. Four sheets, 160 hours times an average rate and you've got a number. Don't worry about someone underpricing you.

 

[dicksewerrat]

One more thing, Are you then the engineer of record? The PEMB manufacturer won't be.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[dik]

Are you having any impact on the adjacent existing structures?

Dik

 

[vandede427]

again, if it's only a PEMB (no add on's like a mezzanine, or firewalls, etc) i state that i'm EOR for everything below bottom of base plate.

i'm not stating how many cents/sf on a forum.

 

[Bobber1]

Be sure to add a disclaimer that your estimate is based on timely receipt of necessary information from the Bldg. Mfr. Permits? They can be as bad as Appendix D or worse. More disclaimers re: permits?

 

[onealexis]

"One more thing, Are you then the engineer of record? The PEMB manufacturer won't be."
"again, if it's only a PEMB (no add on's like a mezzanine, or firewalls, etc) i state that i'm EOR for everything below bottom of base plate."

- yes, this is what we do as well.

 

[onealexis]

Our fee estimate was in the range of $6k.

The contractor told us he could easily have another engineer design it for $1500, but was willing to pay 'as much as $2,500' if we wanted to do it.

That sounds like a drafting fee to me, no engineering, no anchor bolt designs, no recognition of the eccentricities that would have to be accounted for on the columns adjacent to the building.

What do you all think of this? Do you think it's even remotely possible to design the foundationd described and to provide details sheets for the design for $2500?

 

[dik]

I'd pass... I think $5k to $6k is a reasonable number for a relatively straight forward project... less than 2% of the structure cost ($400,000 - WAG).

my $.02... ($0.18 US)

Dik

 

[BAretired]

How do you intend to carry the horizontal forces...using ties under the slab? Or hasn't that been decided yet? To me, the fee for engineering design can only be estimated if you have a pretty good idea of how you will do it. You clearly don't have time to do a whole bunch of optional designs for the client to perform comparative pricing.

Having said that, $2500 seems much too low no matter what design you end up with.

BA

 

[onealexis]

Actually, the contractor 'designed' his own floor slab. So, in that case, I said that we would not use hair pins (since we have no control over the design of the slab). So, I would design the piers and footings to resist the lateral force.

Yes, that was my thought... $2500 seems like a drafting fee only.