Ethanol plant

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I have a large ethanol facility that is just starting to be built and will be used to make ethanol from pine wood chips.

For design criteria I was told, in writing by the company chief engineer, to use Ordinary Hazard Group II which is good enough for me.

Might be right as all they are doing is fermenting wet wood chips, everything is closed and the ethanol is collected in tanks outside.

Does Ord II sound right to those who have had experience in ethanol plants? I won't change anything, I'm not about to argue with the owners chief chemist and chief enginner, but I am sort of curious.

 

[stookeyfpe]

- Are wood chips stored indoors and if so, how big are the piles?
- The wood chips are wet - have you checked FM criteria's for the protection of what they term green wood? These materials may be susceptible to ignition due to adiabatic heating. I doubt if you are dealing with high moisture content wood but it should be questioned.
- What's the output of the fermenters? Are we talking 10s of gallons/hours or 100s of gallons/hour? If it's the larger number, I would start questioning the design. You could end up with a large pool fire in a very short time period if you are protecting large fermenters.
- Is ethanol used in conjunction with a yeast or other catalyst to convert the starch and glucose into ethanol? If so, you may have a solvent extraction plant as defined by NFPA 36.

Just my own thoughts....

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Stookey,

I don't have the answers to any of your questions.

A month or so ago I brought up the discussion of when should a fire sprinkler tech contact an FPE. In my opinion this is exactly the type of situation where a layout tech would be crazy not to involve an FPE except in this particular case I have a criteria letter, signed by a PE, on the owners letterhead. I made an extra copy for my personal files at home.

I think they are self insured.

 

[stookeyfpe]

SD2:

I agree. The seal will not do the company any good if the automatic sprinkler system is not properly designed. Let's hope that a risk assessment and analysis was performed to determine the design of the automatic sprinkler system.

 

[669Sprink]

As a fitter that is currently installing my 27th Ethanol plant, I have picked up a few things along the way.I have installed in plants built by Fagen Inc, Poet (Broin), and ICM. I am guessing that you are not working with any of these companies as they have their fire protection requirements down very well and there would not be much to guess about.

Your Fermentation area in the plant should be Ord II. There is no real flamable liguids there. All companies seem to go this way. One thing to keep in mind when working in the fermentation area is that more then likely you will be hanging above the main pipe rack and getting water below the rack in any kind of pattern is not really possible. Well worth a trip to the job to look at if this is your first rodeo.

I am suprised they are not making you guys do their Evap area. They are evaporating alcahol there. Flammable vapors present. Ord II.

I am also supprised that they are not requiring you to install a systen in the distillation area. This is the area where it all goes down. 200 proof alcahol, flammable vapors, etc. Most insurance carriers (really there are only a couple) require protection on the Flash, Reflux and Regen vessles, 200 proof reciever, Rectifier, Beer column and Side Stripper. Many plants choose to do the Moleculer Sieves as well. Plus all the motors that go with all these vessles. 100 sqr per nozzle. Kind of more special hazard since you are protecting specific items.

I assume that you are working with a tank and a pump for supply. At the bare minimum I would try and talk the plant into a pump in the 2500 gpm range so that they will have good supply for all future systems.

Just a "few" thoughts. Keep in mind I am just a dumb fitter as well.

 

[rconner]

669Sprink, thanks for relaying your experience (and I was just curious, what year did you start working on your first one?)

 

[669Sprink]

The first plant I did was in 2002. They are the only work I do now a days. Not to sure about how I feel about the fuel itself but I will ride the wave as long as I can. Most fitters want nothing to do with industrial work at all. I love it so it. Works out good for me. I would be happy if I never cut another drop in a finished ceiling again. Lots of variety in Special Hazard/Industrial work. Keeps a guy thinking

 

[stookeyfpe]

669

I hope one day we cross paths and thanks for telling us your experiences.

Do you fitters still get those Rigid Tool calenders? I used to fall in love every January when those came out.

 

[rconner]

A quarter century ago I visited my first ethanol plant, associated with the installation of an extensive underground fire protection loop for same (it appears they are much more "en vogue" now!)

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

669Sprink,

We're doing the first building and all I have is a site plan, a water supply, steel ecection drawings and a letter from a PE telling me to design to Ord 2 keeping all pipe a minimum 22' AFF except for the riser.

On this project I'm a simple layout technician and as such I insist on leaving all engineering up to others. If the design criteria comes on letterhead from a PE that is exactly what I am going to do.

 

[669Sprink]

In the end (pending approval from AHJ) the customer is always right...... even when they are wrong. Good luck with your plant.