Ethical Dilemma/Use of PE Stamp 1

[jonathanearle]

I am a licensed PE working for a municipality. We have roughly 90% drawings for a street reconstruction and stormwater separation project, which need some minor adjustments prior to being put out to bid. I've been asked by my boss to make the minor adjustments to the design and stamp the drawings prior to them being put out to bid.

My question: Is it ethical to stamp drawings which the lion's share of the work has been done by an outside consultant? This type of work is certainly in my area of expertise, having stamped similar projects in a previous life while working for a consultant. My thought is that if I complete a review of the design and make the modifications, then it should be ethical to stamp the drawings myself and not have to hire the consultant to complete and stamp the design.

Any feedback from either the private or public sector would be greatly appreciated.

 

[EddyC]

You should review the regulations of your particular state. Some states prohibit the stamping of someone else's work, even if you are competent technically. Other states permit it, but have specific guidelines on the method that must be followed. But also think about the legal implications of "highjacking" another companies work.

 

[zdas04]

You can only stamp drawings if you are in "responsible charge" of the work. If the drawings were prepared by other municipal employees then maybe you can do it. If they were farmed out to a drafting or engineering firm then you absolutely cannot stamp them (for you to be in "responsible charge" of them would imply an employer/employee relationship that your city attorney would object to).

David

 

[JAE]

This is from the ASCE Code of Ethics:

[red]Engineers shall approve or seal only those design documents, reviewed or prepared by them, which are determined to be safe for public health and welfare in conformity with accepted engineering standards.[/red]

The key is: do you [green]KNOW[/green] that it is safe? Did you review the entire package of drawings and specs?

 

[BJC]

Then again there was a case in Idaho (if I remember correctly) where the city manager ordered the city engineer to do something and the engineer refused. He was right but fired. The case had wide spread attention and the engineer had a fund established to persue his case. I believe several engineering societies were involved on his side.
I don't remember the outcome. I think he won a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[JRESE]

Let's look at this from the consultants point of view for a minute. I spend my company's resources to market my services to your boss, I go through the hassles of getting a contract signed with a governmental agency, I wait for 60 to 90 days for payment. Then your boss wants to screw me out of, what, a couple hundred dollars of potential fees earned? BTW, Jonathan, are you absolutely certain that the consultant has been paid for the work already done? Do you realize that you may be undermining the consultant's ability to get paid promptly? And what about when there are questions about the design that the consultant should answer? Is this consultant going to want to work with you in the future?

You were absolutely correct in considering this to be, first, an ethical dilemma. To me, legal considerations come second.

 

[steve1]

Here's a link to the Ed Turner case mentioned above.

http://gostructural.com/article.asp?id=582

 

[whyun]

Request the consulting engineer to make the minor changes and provide a revised sheet with his stamp and seal.

 

[Gymmeh]

The Ed Turner case is sickening, I thought the Gov't was supposed to protect the people. I hope the people that fire him got fire also for negligence and endangering the welfare of the public.

 

[JAE]

I thought the Gov't was supposed to protect the people

I don't think that. In fact, the main focus of the US Constitution is protecting the people from government mis-use of power.

 

[jonathanearle]

A few things to I should clarify on this subject:

1. I am under no pressure from my boss (also a licensed PE, but not overly familiar with the ins/outs of the project) to stamp the drawings. Just a suggestion that he made. Our city ordinance (might also be state/federal law) requires all work over $100k to be stamped, with this project being roughly $750k.

2. I've been on board a little over a year, and this project had been put on the shelf prior to my starting employment, and has since come back to life due to available funding. The consultant has completed the scope of work and to my knowledge has been paid for such services, which do not explicitly include stamped drawings or specs (which we do in-house) from what I read in the RFP.

3. The changes to the design resulted from a public meeting with there residents wanting sidewalks, granite curbing, etc., but no changes are being proposed to the roadway and drainage design to speak of.

I'm certainly not in the situation of the Turner case and if push comes to shove we will contact the consultant to stamp the changes we are proposing.

 

[whyun]

There has to be one individual, whether it be consultant or someone in-house, in responsible charge for one project. If consulting engineer is not (or did not)providing the stamp/seal, find out who is (or did) and have him make the changes & stamp.

 

[msquared48]

If you are going to change anything on that drawing, it should go back to the design firm for their review to make sure their design still works.

If your review to is to merely make sure that the exzisting utilituies are properly called out and upto date, there is no problem with adding a limitation in writing beneath your stamp as to what you are approving. I have done tso in the past where I only was approving a lateral design and had no part in the gravity design. There is nothing wrong with this, wut you must limit your stamp and inform the EOR of the design changes.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[civilperson]

Normal practice is to list in a paragraph preceding your seal what specific items you designed and exclude the items you did NOT design. (The cover sheet of big projects is filled with the stamps and items designed for each and every contributor to the project.)

 

[DonPhillips]

Interesting story but I think we are only getting half of the story.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[MiketheEngineer]

As noted - check your state rules and usually you would be in violation of the rules and ethics of most states. Also as sugested - just add an addendum sheet with your additions and seal that part only.

Remember - you and maybe your city are now responsible... Do you really want that??

 

[jonathanearle]

It appears what it boils down to is being technically competitent enough to review the drawings and make the minor modifications versus actually being in responsible charge design of the project (which was completed before I started here like I mentioned). I certainly don't want to be stealing food off of a consultant's plate at the expense of saving my municipality a few bucks or being able to put the contract out to bid any sooner. The consultant is someone we've worked with in the past and have had a working relationship with, though we don't currently have any work with them on the books.

 

[RARWOOD]

The thing I would be conserned about would be liability. If you make revisions and then stamp the drawings I would think the orginal engineer would be relieved of liability.

This reminds me of what happen to a firm I worked for at one time. An engineer screwed up a street project design for the local county. Before the project started the engineer ran for a seat on the county board. After winning the election the person pointed out the errors in the project design recommending that the county sue his former employer.

 

[EddyC]

If you're going to accept responsibility for only the parts of the design that you modify, then you should have the original engineer accept responsibility for the portions of the design that remain "as is". Therefore 2 PE stamps should be applied to the drawings (yours & the original engineer's).

 

[JAE]

Therefore 2 PE stamps should be applied to the drawings (yours & the original engineer's).

This goes contrary to what I've always understood to be the fact that there must be a single overall engineer-of-record on a project.

There can be other engineers who seal parts of the design, but only "under" the EOR and only if that portion of the project is directed by the EOR to be engineered by others.