Ethics of the job search 3

[EngineerDave]

A few questions and a scenario

1) If you are laid off, are you obligated to bring that up in the interview or can you dodge it as it's a liability and make it appear as if you are just looking for a new position? At the time I was contacting other companies I hadn't been officially laid off yet, so the fact that I was looking for a new job was in fact a correct statement. It still is for that matter of fact.

It's not that I don't want to be truthful, I just don't want to hurt my chances for a layoff which i still believe was unjustified given the circumstances.

2) If you were contacted discretely by a company which is unhappy with their current employee and considering replacing them, would you feel guilty discussing a position with them? The reason I feel a bit guilty is that by entering in discussions I feel like I could be responsible for said parties loss of job if I was offered a position. Where does ethics, guilt and sensitivity rule into this? I know it'd be a bitter pill for me to swallow to take someone elses job, especially after just being laid off myself.

The other item connected to that is, I wonder if I'd be entering a no win situation as well.

In any event I have talked a bit to the company listed in situation 2 and they bluntly stated the gentleman isn't getting the work done on time.

It looks like the position could be fairly demanding, not unlike most positions in my field.

Just wondering your thoughts.

 

[msquared48]

I have been very honest over the past four months of looking, but few answers and no interviews. So much for being honest.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[EngineerDave]

Yeah I know everyone understands the current economic conditions.

I guess my main problem is I'm in a particular sector that was supposed to be relatively recession proof. But my particular business laid off 50 people.

I just don't want to have to deal with the liability of explaining the unusual layoff. There was one other cut in my direct department and 50 total in the company.

Then again there is a real possibility they may find out.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Don't try to butter it up; you come across as evasive, which basically ends the interview. Just flat out tell 'em what happened, wait two heartbeats, and ask a question about something else. As in, question answered, case closed, move on.

Don't answer questions that weren't asked; just the ones that were, honestly and without hesitation.

Don't worry about replacing someone. It happens. I've been involuntarily replaced several times. My current record is six.

... no, not discharged six times; replaced by, ultimately, six people. Major cost savings there. ;-)





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[youngstructural]

Mike: I thought you had your own business.... Are you looking for work? Where are you in the States? Have things gotten THAT bad?!?!?

We're just starting to suffer layoffs here in New Zealand. Started in earnest about a month ago, with the early trickle perhaps two and a half months back.

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

 

[MikeHalloran]

I was planning to retire from a major medical electronics manufacturer, but that longtime job went away when my mentor and protector, The Chairman, died.

He liked me, or tolerated me, because I always told him the truth as I saw it, no matter how unpleasant, no matter how much it upset Top Management... and it usually did. Honesty is a congenital flaw, shared by my late father and my sons.

Since then, I've had some great jobs, some bad jobs, some lean years, and eaten my retirement funds, but right now, I'm working, for an engine dealer in New Orleans, trying to learn all about Diesel and natural gas powered generators before they find out how little I really know about anything.


I keep dreaming that I'd like to just build wooden boats... but first I'd have to learn something about boats, and something about woodworking.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[flamby]

Mike,

I know many for whom a dream of learning anything comes as a nightmare.

Ciao.

 

[FreddyNurk]

EngineerDave: I have two thoughts regarding your current situation.

Firstly, regarding the 'honesty' policy. Its probably a lot easier to excuse given the current climate, as just about everyone is looking at cutting back. It also depends on who is interviewing you as to whether you'll get away with honesty or not. I've managed to pull it off twice now, having been made redundant when the economic upturn was in full swing. I don't know if I'd have gained the same result if HR was interviewing me, but in both cases, since the people interviewing me were going to be working with me, I'd say that they're aware that you won't put up smokescreens.

For the second one, there are two perspectives. Having viewed the amount of damage that a recalcitrant employee can do, if they've gone far enough then people will take those sort of steps to get rid of someone, though they may also be being honest about their intentions. The other perspective is that if they're prepared to behave that way regarding their employees, then its quite likely that you'll get the same treatment should they hire you. This requires careful analysis of the situation, and a decent assessment of your potential employer where possible.

Both situations require some consideration, including looking at who is likely to be interviewing you. I hope that your job search goes well for you.

 

[Ron]

Layoffs result from a variety of reasons, the first of which is not usually your performance, particularly if part of a multiple person layoff. Like MikeHalloran said...answer it and move on...there's a good chance they already know it, so don't leave it out...they will brand you as disingenuous.

 

[moltenmetal]

Answer what is asked truthfully: "I was laid off with about 50 of my colleagues in a corporate downsizing".

Answer any other questions which might follow on, truthfully. Rehearse answers to follow-on questions that might be reasonably expected.

There is no need to volunteer this information.

A reference from your previous employer, even if it is NOT from your direct supervisor, can be helpful to allay fears on the part of prospective new employers.

Do not list your former employer as your present one, unless you have not YET been laid off. Any decent interviewer will already know that you're no longer employed there, if they bother to read your resume.

As to replacing people: you should have no ethical qualms about replacing an incompetent, or an employee who is otherwise non-functional. But since you do not KNOW that the person you're replacing posesses these flaws, you have to at least consider that the person or organization doing the hiring/firing is the party at fault. In that case, you could be signing up for yet more pain. If it's fair game for them to ask you why you're no longer working, and they bring up the topic of replacing existing employees, it's fair game for you to ask why others are not working out and need replacement.

 

[Debaser]

Being 'laid off'/made redundant is surely just a matter of being surplus to staffing requirements at a particular time and place, and nothing to be ashamed of or hide?

Being dismissed, of course, is a different ball-game.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Some HR departments make no distinction between having been fired, and having been laid off/ surplused/ right-sized. I.e., attitude-wise, they seem to be stuck in the fifties.

If you are in today's job market, you are actually quite likely to meet these people, or at least speak to them on the phone, because their companies are _always_ hiring... to replace the legions of good people who quit in disgust or who actively work at getting laid off because they are a bad fit for a broken company.

I.e., a lot of jobs are available because _no_one_ can do them, or because no ethical or sane person _would_ do them.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[EngineerDave]

My position was "eliminated" which is the formal statement in the letter they provided me with.

 

[Debaser]

EngineerDave said;
"My position was "eliminated" which is the formal statement in the letter they provided me with."

Why didn't they just say it was 'terminated with prejudice...extreme prejudice'?

HR. Love 'em. Power mad fools.

 

[cksh]

as far as question 1, if they don't ask don't tell. If you know you are getting laid off but haven't yet you are still employed and I would treat it as such. For all you know you could have been laid off and hired back in as contract (happens sometimes).

2. Don't feel guilty. Unless you are in a start up company, or one that is expanding, you are probably replacing someone.

It can be nerve racking if you find out the previous employee was fired. I would rather not know and imagine they left on their own

 

[apsix]

Always mention that you were 1 of 50 to be laid off.

 

[looslib]

When I was terminated, the company said it was cause. They claimed I was asleep in a meeting, because I had my eyes closed.
When asked about why I wasn't working there, I just said I was involuntarily termintaed. Only one HR person asked what the reason was and laughed when I told her. And that compnay did want to bring me in for an interview, but I had already found this job in the mean time.
Just be honest and like talking to the IRS, never offer more information than is asked for!

Good Luck to you.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[EddyC]

I get numerous phone calls from recruiters, dating back from 2 years ago that I posted my resume on the web. They almost always ask: "Are you still working there? [last employer]". They are trying to see how current the resume is, as employers come and go very quickly these days.

So I would say that this could be a common question that any prospective employer would ask, and nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[KENAT]

On your 2. Generally don't feel guilty about it, do they feel guilty for having a job while you're unemployed? I'm sure there could be some weird circumstances where perhaps you arguably should feel guilty, but unless you know that for sure don't worry about it.

However, be aware that the person being replaced may have friends there, they most likely won't be your friends, at least initially. Even though it's managements issue, you'll be guilty by association.

That situation occured at my first job. I essentially replaced in all but title a very experienced designer who didn't fit in with new management. His biggest sin was not being keen on learning CAD as I recall. My immediate supervisor, his long term friend and semi-manager, was not my biggest fan initially.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[swivel63]

ethics goes a long way. my last company (a manufacturing firm) tried to get me to do stuff like design without a safety factor. i said no. so they said i was uncooperative. personally, i'm happier now.

"we've built 10 million square feet of this stuff, and no panel has ever come off."

"that's because you've been lucky."