ethics 1

[5747hazel]

here are is a situations I might run into
say as an engineer you are hired by a employer who doesn't have a license to provide engineering services to public. the employer never ask you to provide any engineering services to public under the employer's name. but some time the employer would ask you to engineer something for the employer itself. say to build a little structure in its parking lot or in a land it purchased. is it ok for you to do the work and sign and seal the document? even do you have to sign and seal the document you produce it is only for your employer. or even is it ethical to do the work?
I personally always worked for some kind of engineering firm for my whole life. never needed to deal with a situation like above before. thanks

 

[johnie134]

Get in touch with your boss and some for some extra money. everything will be fine then my friend.

 

[Guest090822]

This post sounds like a saturday nite live skit!

 

[phamENG]

So this does still seem a bit confusing.

From the sound of some of your posts, this does NOT fall under the "industrial exception." This sounds like a developer who has hired an in-house engineer to design buildings that will be built and then leased/sold by/to members of the public.

Is this your primary employer or a side job? You mention that he should use your firm...are you saying you work for a firm or that you have your own firm? If you are also employed by an engineering firm, then clear it with them unless you want to lose your job there (they'd probably count this as moonlighting, which is generally frowned upon for liability reasons).

So if we assume this is your only job, and you were hired to be the engineer doing their designs in house, you probably need to contact the board and discuss this with them. It sounds like they need to register with the board, listing you as the responsible professional in charge of their engineering. Then they need to get insurance to cover you. And they need to indemnify you. Indemnity won't be covered by the board, it'll be covered by an attorney. You should probably make an appointment with one right away and discuss the particulars of your situation and what you can and cannot do.

This isn't an ethics discussion, it's a legal/liability one.

 

[5747hazel]

thanks for all the good advises. PhamENG. Well they would not register with the board since they don't plan to provide engineering services. I talked with them about the insurance a while back when I thought it is an engineering firm which later on I found it is not. they told me all the projects are insured for the projects themselve. there is no need to have liability insurance. so I told them I cant stamp or sign anything. I believe any project they do should have sign and sealed structural drawings before construction which I am not sure if the city would requires or enforces that. if it is required someone outside the company has to seal the drawing and a title block from a registered firm would be put on the drawing although some of the work might be done by me, I think I would be ok.
But if city does not check if construction following any sealed drawings and any project is done without it would fall on my head since I am the engineer in the firm?

 

[phamENG]

Confusion has not been cleared up.

Are you designing structures for your employer to use? For example: your employer is an industrial business, manufacturing widgets. They need a platform so their maintenance personnel can better maintain the Widget-o-matic. You design it, it gets built, all is well. That's the "industrial exception" brought up by IRStuff. In many states, you don't need to be licensed to do this.

Or, as I think may be the case, is your employer a developer who is building things for the sole purpose of turning them over to be used by others? For example: your employer is a real estate developer who buys pieces of land, subdivides them, and builds houses, or condos, or apartments on them. In this case, you absolutely need a license. Now this is where you need a lawyer to give you advice (or the board - the boards in some states can answer these questions) - does this qualify as "providing engineering services to the public"? I think the answer should be yes, but it may not be. If you are fulfilling this role as an employee of the developer, then the developer is providing that service to the buyer of the house. If you are doing it as a consultant, then you are the one the fulfilling that role. But again, be careful and talk to a lawyer. If this is the case, it sounds like your employer wants to have his cake and eat it, too - avoid paying profits on the engineering while also feeling as if they have an element of control over you AND attempt to distance themselves from liability exposure. All of this at YOUR expense.

 

[r13]

Walk away, and find another job. You won't reimbursed for your worry.

 

[EngineeringEric]

A firm cannot perform engineering for properties you've mentioned unless they are registered. Business and individual license. You may lose your license doing this or face stiff penalties or worse.

If you do any engineering, you have to be covered by insurance. You want to be covered. If a contractor screws up because they didn't read your drawings, you will be sued; wrongly, but sued. you need engineering insurance, not contractor insurance, not 'the whole building is covered'. i promise, and you know its true, the insurance only covers some things. no insurance covers 'everything'. Why would insurance covered professional liability when the company doesn't do professional engineering? the answer is it won't.

Tell your employeer no. contact your board. prepare to get a new job if needed.

 

[Rabbit12]

I'll second EngineeringEric and I'll be more blunt. YOU NEED TO BE COVERED BY INSURANCE IF YOU ARE PERFORMING ENGINEERING WORK! If your employer is having you design any structure that may at some point be used by "the public" you are rolling the dice by doing the work without insurance. If something were to fail and injure/kill someone the lawyers will come after your house, car, 401k, boat, etc.

Working for a company that won't properly insure you is incredibly stupid.

 

[IRstuff]

title block from a registered firm would be put on the drawing although some of the work might be done by me

You are on shaky ground here; the PE that signs and seals must be actively supervising you and your work in order for them to ethically sign and seal any drawing you work on. When stuff hits the fan, you would be included in the lawsuit, and as a junior engineer, you'd likely be thrown under the bus by others involved in the suit.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[5747hazel]

thanks for all the good advises. I need to take some actions to get everything straighten out.

thanks

 

[Rabbit12]

You're wise to question this arrangement. I'd be much more worried about the lack of insurance than I would be about my employer not being a licensed engineering firm in the state.

 

[r13]

One more thing I would like to point out is, no matter who you are working for, sign or not sign the design committed by you, when structure failure occurs, both the construction process by the contractor and your design will subject to close scrutiny. Usually you are shield by the company's insurance for monetary liability, but will be punished/disciplined for any wrong doing, including negligence.