Expired Fire test certificate 7

[ARAK25]

Hi Everyone,

We ordered few ball valves from a supplier and they are delivered to site. After constant follow up they submitted the test certificate and it was discovered they are expired a month ago.

This Fire test certificate has an expiry date which has already lapsed.

Please note: Due to project urgency, the valves were released for delivery and they are now in site.

What should I do in this instance?

 

[The Obturator]

Make the supplier properly understand the situation, and throw the issue back to them to rectify immediately. That is, if your order specifically asked for such certification.


*** Per ISO-4126, the generic term
'Safety Valve' is used regardless of application or design ***

*** 'Pressure-relief Valve' is the equivalent ASME/API term ***

 

[ARAK25]

Yes the order asks for fire test certification. The supplier refuses to provide "renewed" test certificate and claims that the test certificate was valid at the time of manufacture and release of delivery which is true. THe test certificate expired on 24th mar 2023.

Another query here is: Can we renew the fire test certificate if the valve is delivered to site?

 

[The Obturator]

OK. The suppliers defence is one that you'll have to settle commercially, either by not paying or refusing future business. Either way, it does not solve the issue.

Regarding renewal. It would depend on the authority whom issued the certificate. I would at least expect your supplier to approach this authority and request either recertification or an extension to the existing certificate (to last until say end of the warranty period you gave your client. There is also the issue of whether your client expects and/or ordered such certification. You can of course approach this authority direct if your supplier does not longer want to play.


*** Per ISO-4126, the generic term
'Safety Valve' is used regardless of application or design ***

*** 'Pressure-relief Valve' is the equivalent ASME/API term ***

 

[PeterIgg]

I do not understand the comment "expiry of a Fire Test cert". Assuming we are talking API 607, the test is a type test and is current for the design whilst the date of manufacture was when that standard was current, and, of course, there is a period of grace between the new standard coming into force. The time needed to make the valves comply is quite long as testing is an arduous process as there are many tests to be done to cover the full range of valve size/class and materials - both body and seats.

I understand your annoyance if you specifically requested valves to the current standard and they have supplied to the previous version but, being realistic, is is a real issue? Consider a plant that is 20 years old, all the valves will all be to the earlier versions of the standard and, typically, valve designs do not change that much. Usually the user wants a proven design, not a novel one!

 

[BVMan]

Fully agree with PeterIgg, Firesafe Certification does not normally have a expiry date, it is made obsolete eventually by changes to the Specifications.

What you may have is a 'Type Approval Certificate', these are issued by organisations like Lloyds Register to show that a product is suitable for a particular application, for instance use in Ship Building. In that instance that may expire but the Underlying Firesafe Certificate has not.

The other thing to look at is what is the date of Manufacture or Final Pressure Testing of the Valve, if this is before 24th March 2023 there should be no problem.

 

[gerhardl]

Agree with PeterIgg here!

Another question is the exact wording in the original order from the end user.

You will often find incomplete specifications in the purchasing orders for valves.

I suspect that your problems come from uncomplete specificatons from your customer. They might possibly require more than they actually specified. See my comments below.

For a firesafe valve a complete specification wold describe the firesafe certification in all details: name of agency, certification details (exact no. specification of date, issue number, alterations etc.), if the valve should be inspected and controlled by the factory or a certified inspector, or, if relevant, one or several valves of the production line of supplied valves should be required tested (again all details) etc.

The lowest end of the 'firesafe' scale is to ask for valves of 'firesafe design' without specification. Usually understood that you can supply valves if the factory has certified similar constructed valves. But not necessarily same dimensions and pressure classes.

Some firesafe certificate agencies will have already included sveral dimensions or pressure classes as 'firesafe' if the test for near dimensions or pressure classes have been tested OK.

Conclusion: clear and precise technical communication will solve most problems.

 

[ARAK25]

Hi @Gerhardl, @BVMan, @peterIgg,

Many thanks for taking time to respond to this thread.

For sake of clarity I have attached a copy of the certificate mentioned at the begining of the thread, so we all speak the same.

Valve Specification asks for Ball Valves to be fire safe design and tested in accordance with API607 (Fire test certificates to be submitted). When I say here, tested, I consider this as TYPE TEST. This valve supplier has provided a copy of the test certificate.

@BVMan, yes you are right. The attached certificate is a type approval certificate.

The final pressure testing for supplied valves was carried out well before the 8th march 2023.

@gerhardl, I don't think there is a problem in the valve specification provided by the Client, but the issue here is Valid until date mentioned in the test certificate.

the date mentioned at the bottom left hand side refers to the date the certificate was originally issued which i believe shows it was valid for 10years which has expired now.

So i wanted to know what is the purpose of this expiry date or how does this affect the supplied valve under that category?

Thanks

 

[bcd]

Fire test pe API 607 is a type test. API 607 fire tests and the applicable certificate do not expire. There is nothing in the standard that states or dictates an expiration date. This date was made-up by the witness agency. The expiration date on the certificate is not relevant. If I was the valve manufacturer, I would have made the witness agency take this expiration date off the certificate.

The API 607 certificate is no longer valid once the design or materials of construction change to the extent that the standard no longer permits the extension of the test results to the product being sold. Or, if the order specifically asks for a more current edition of the standard. Note that there have been very little changes to API 607 over several editions, so many previous test reports are still valid per later editions of the standard. However, the 8th edition adds an additional leak test after the burn, so if the customer is specifically asking for the "latest" edition or the 8th edition, then a new certificate and test report showing the results of the additional leak test is necessary.

 

[gerhardl]

ARAK25, Thank you for clarification! I agree fully with both you and BCD. In my opinion (also) the manufacturer has supplied to ordered specifications. If additional info's or papers/tests are requiered this should have been specified.

 

[VFK]

This sounds very similar to a project I recently moved on from. One way to demonstrate to the client the gap is closed is to request the witnessing agency to issue a letter explaining the basis/origin of the expiration date. Otherwise I agree with @bcd response, citing API607 does not mandate an expiration date for fire tests.

 

[NGiLuzzu]

I agree with the above posts: as far as I know, since they simply certify that a certain test was performed on a certain date with certain results, fire test certificates themselves DO NOT EXPIRE.​

Maybe the resulting product range qualification could change, if the relevant rules of extension ever change, for example.​

The reference fire test standards (e.g.: ISO 10497, API 607, API 6FA, etc.) are revised every 5 or 10 years, but the latest substantial changes date back to 2004/2005; after that, only some details were changed.​

So, case by case, it is worth running a gap analysis against the different editions before deciding about acceptance of an existing fire safe qualification: you may discover there are no real differences and you were just wasting time discussing about nothing.​

In any case, in more general terms, if a Manufacturer obtained a product capable of passing a fire test decades ago (and its quality and performance standards were maintained throughout the years, of course), this should be regarded as a note of merit, not as a disadvantage, in comparison with newbie Manufacturers that just opened and set up a few type tests without a sound background experience.​

Hope this helps,
‘NGL

 

[savad]

This one really informatuve and let me share my thoughts!
Re qualification of a fire-tested valve will not be required, unless any removal or change of non-metallic materials are made. Example, Elastomeric seals with thermoplastic seals or vice versa. Elastomeric O-ring substituted for PTFE lip seals. PTFE seal to PEEK and vice versa, any major design change in seat etc.

In short, Agree with you all, fire test certificate not required to review for expiry date, but for the non-metallic material materials