F1 and Turbos

[Catho]

Hey everyone,
hearing some rumours that F1 wants to switch to downsized turbocharged engines, I was wondering in what respect F1 turbocharger differ from production car turbochargers. What turbocharger innovations would you like to see in F1? Ceramic wheels? Sheetmetal housings? Any crazy ideas?

Catho

 

[benmpi]

I would think they would be made almost entirely of carbon if the rules were free. It's pretty much the perfect material for the wheels and housings. The rules would most likely dictate what they were actually like.

 

[Lou Scannon]

So, benpmi, can you give a technical justification for any of the following parts being constucted of carbon (composite)?
turbine wheel
turbine housing
compressor wheel
compressor housing

 

[patprimmer]

I wonder how carbon reacts to raw exhaust gas

Regards
Pat
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[benmpi]

The proper carbon composites won't have any problem dealing with exhaust gasses.

The first reason that comes to mind is the extremely high stiffness to weight ratio. I'm not saying I know exactly how to build it or even that they would use carbon for those parts but it would be the first material I looked too if I was taxed with designing a turbo with virtually no budget. There is a reason almost every part on a modern formula one car is made of the stuff.

 

[Lou Scannon]

no kidding...
Can you share with us some thermal properties for the proper carbon composite at say, 1800-2000°F?
I'd also be interested to know the manufacturing method for a carbon composite compressor or turbine wheel (and how the desired tensile strength is achieved along with the aero shape.

 

[GregLocock]

Since the objective is a standardised engine there is no point in chasing wet-dream technology.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[RnDSolo]

you do know that you can use carbon in other ways than just carbon fiber right??

the turbine would be and EXCELLENT component to make from carbon/ceramic (brakes are made from this)

you will see cylinders made from Aluminum embedded with Si-Ca (also know as metal matrix composites) your headers and exxhuast valves will remain iconel. they would probably like to use titanium, but with being mandatory to run petrol and not alky, they cant take the heat...

check this place out for lots of "in the know" material

http://www.ret-monitor.com/articles/welcome/

 

[GregLocock]

Since the objective is a cheap standardised engine there is no point in chasing wet-dream technology.


Cheers

Greg Locock


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[patprimmer]

My experience of pure carbon and air and red heat is the carbon starts to burn.

turbine housings and wheels get red hot.

Brake rotors do not get quite as hot as exhausts and I believe F1 rotors only last one race.

Also carbon/carbon materials are quite brittle. Even high nickel cast iron housings crack fairly regularly.

Also carbon/carbon materials are VERY expensive.

Regards
Pat
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[benmpi]

F1 brake rotors reach almost 2000F (hotter than the turbine wheel would ever get). You could cut out the aero shape of a carbon composite wheel in the exact same way current compressor wheels are machined.

Cost would be a complete non issue were talking about a sport where budgets are almost non existent. There are already people with way smaller budgets and far less knowledge using carbon for engine sleeves and pistons for the same reasons; lower mass, higher strength, and lower thermal expansion.

Not sure why your so ready to attack the idea of using carbon composites, what would you suggest they be made out of?

 

[MikeHalloran]

There was a time when 'wet dream' technology was everywhere in F1.

Unfortunately, today, F1 would not be sustainable >as a business<, and therefore not sustainable at all, without some limits on the costs. Standardized engines are one such limit.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[patprimmer]

Inconel or titanium, just like they use for exhaust valves.

Regards
Pat
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[benmpi]

Well at the very least it would be Al and Ti. They already do that in rally aplications, no sense in using inconel since all you would be doing is adding mass. Carbon would definitely be the choice for the housings.

 

[patprimmer]

Aluminium has rather poor strength at red heat.

Every turbo I ever saw being dynoed had the turbine glowing red hot.

Every housing I saw with Ceramachrome coating had a dull finish after a few miles. That happens when the aluminium in the coating boils off.

Regards
Pat
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[Lou Scannon]

benmp, I'm skeptical but curious. Do you know of a proven process where the carbon fibres could be laid up in a turbine wheel blank and subsequently machined to final shape while retaining the desired stress flow? If so, please provide details.
Do you have the yield strength vs temperature data for carbon composite (as used in F1 brakes) at 2000F?

 

[benmpi]

To be honest I had to look around and do a little research but CNC filament winding seems to be the best way to make a turbine or compressor wheel from a carbon composite. From the start I think there was some confusion that I was talking about typical "carbon fiber" which would not be ideal for this application (although maybe for the compressor housing). I do not have the data for yield strength on anything on a formula one car as i suspect you would have to kill for that

 

[benmpi]

Pat, I meant to imply that the compressor would be aluminum and the turbine would be Ti. I don't think an aluminum turbine wheel would last more than 30 seconds.

 

[patprimmer]

I agree.

Carbon or aluminium are OK for the compressor, although I expect thin is as important as light for a compressor wheel. Titanium or carbon should be better than aluminium when modulus and density are taken into account to design it thin and rigid.

Aluminium is obviously fine for compressor housings. The Garrett sitting at my feet has an aluminium compressor housing.

I really don't think any type of carbon will withstand constant blasts of hot exhaust gas while under high cyclic loads.

Regards
Pat
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[Apsu]

Carbon-Carbon- Quasi-isotropic Youngs Modulus properties for non post temperature treated are aprox 28000N/mm^2

Can bond it.
Can weld it
Can machine it, (Mill eg)
Can cut it (hacksaw etc)
Can thread it.
Density between 1.4 to 1.7gm/cc
very low coefficient of Friction (basically graphite)
It handles thermal shock extremely well.
CTE in plain is virtually non-existent
Dimensionally stable

Design to fatigue allowable about 120N/mm^2

Limitation is that it will oxidise after 450 Deg.C.

Cheapest source in UK (there is a lot of scrap around and no use).