Fair Compensation for SE? 16

[STrctPono]

Hi all,

I've been getting a lot of push-back from my wife at home concerning my job's work culture and her desire to move States. I am pushing hard not to move. I wanted to provide some information and get some feedback from you folks because I am completely unfamiliar with how my job's compensation stacks up to other jobs around the country. Am I spoiled? If I leave my State will I end up working for the DOT somewhere else?

My only Engineering job that I have ever had is my current one and I started it right out of Graduate School (Masters) 7 years ago.

I am a licensed Structural Engineer working for a small (12 Engineers 3 Drafters) private consulting engineering firm that gets the majority of its contracts through the State DOT (either directly or indirectly). We do all sorts of design related to transportation infrastructure but bridge design is our bread and butter.

The State I work in has a technically inept DOT that does hardly any of its own design work and relies on private consultants to provide most of those services.

The job has exposed me to many different projects (many exciting and high exposure). All very challenging.

The summary of my 2019 work year and compensation is as follows:

-Worked a total of 818 Overtime Hours
-Gross Pay = $176,171.00 (This includes straight OT pay, Company Truck, Contribution to Whole Life Insurance policy, and End of Year Bonus)
EDIT -Additional $14,094.00 contributed to Profit Sharing Retirement Savings Account (Not reflected on my W-2 which is why I didn't include it above).
-In addition my company pays 100% of all health insurance premiums (I have a family plan)
-15 days of PTO
-Company pays for any and all engineering books, reference materials, or continuing education I want
-Approx. 1 Engineering related golf tournament each year
-Trip to World of Concrete or International Bridge Conference (or equivalent) every other year
-Attendance to SEA banquet which usually includes 2 night hotel stay every other year

I don't have to do any of my own drafting. I spend 70% of my time doing design work and 30% of my time doing Finite Element Analysis work and/or Bridge Load Ratings. I never work with Architects. If our contract is not directly with the DOT then either the Civil Engineer or the Contractor (Design-Build) is our client.

Benefits:
-I like the work that I do.
-Good pay
-Good benefits
-Get paid for overtime (straight hourly pay)
-Get a pay raise every year
-Flexibility with my daily schedule (I can take a few hours off here and there to go to my kids school performance, or take care of a family matter, or even bring in a sick child to work with me if needed)
-Challenging and exciting work projects
-Not expected by my boss to bring in jobs for the company at this point in my career
-Live in paradise. Great place to raise kids.
-20 minute commute time

Downfalls:
-Work a lot of overtime. Office has a "work first" culture. I personally witnessed my coworker's marriage and family life deteriorate over the past few years due to his workaholic lifestyle.
-My boss is king and pretty much has final say on all matters
-Boss has an expectation of perfection, hates excuses, and has a tendency to yell and belittle people (however the last part has gotten a lot better in the past 3 or so years)
-Very steep learning curve. Especially related to FEA, no one in the office helps with analysis and you pretty much have to teach yourself everything.
-Taking vacation days is frowned upon but is allowed. I'm probably one of the few people in the office that utilizes all the days each year.
-High cost of living (consistently ranked in top 3 cities in the country). Expensive place to raise kids.
-Due to the high work load and my poor time management, I regularly pull all-nighters trying to get projects out by the deadline.

I was hoping to get some of your guys' work experiences and what you are compensated and how you like your job. Feel free to share. Thanks.

Thanks!

 

[MrHershey]

Very true! At least for Engineers. I appreciate your insight! Why did you move?

Left Hawaii mainly because of cost of living. I make the exact same now in Chicago as I did in Hawaii. My wife actually got about a 25% pay increase when we moved.

Also am closer to family now, but cost of living was the main one. If I was making what you make, I probably wouldn't have left.

 

[DaveAtkins]

I will second and expand on what phamENG wrote. If you work for a larger firm there are more staff members to help when project deadlines become nearly impossible. This, and the fact that the benefits tend to be better, is why I work for a large firm and do not plan to work for a small firm ever again.

I average 45 to 50 hours per week, but some of that is due to non-billable hours such as business development, being a manager, etc.

DaveAtkins

 

[mtu1972]

My experience is no where near yours, but some of my jobs did require 50+ hours per week. First two jobs OT was paid at standard hourly rate. Third and fourth jobs were salaried. Bonuses never covered overtime. Fifth job was hourly. Sixth job paid straight time OT for billable hours above 42 hours per week.

Seventh and last job was hourly, but OT was only paid if all hours were billable. Took me a while to learn this, but a real pain when you were tasked with writing proposals or had other general time (like training, etc.) during the week and then asked to get something out by end of week.

gjc

 

[AaronMcD]

I would never average much more than 40 hours a week at work. Perhaps I'd suck it up for 6 months if the pay was a million. But for 200k no way. My life is worth more than money to me.

Sure, I'd work extra for a while to get jobs done on time, but make sure to compensate myself the next week or month by taking less work.

Maybe in the zombie apocalypse I'll have to work dawn to dusk, but I'll step up if that happens.

http://www.hellodwell.design

 

[SteelPE]

-Gross Pay = $176,171.00 (This includes straight OT pay, Company Truck, Companies 10% contribution to Profit Sharing Retirement Plan, Contribution to Whole Life Insurance policy, and End of Year Bonus)

Is the $176k your compensation with OT or is the $176k your include all of the other stuff you included (OT, truck, health insurance etc)?

Either way I suppose you are doing pretty well. If you are unhappy with your job then I suppose the only next step is to go out on your own and see where that leads you. This way you can make your own schedule and decide which projects to take on. However, I would guess if you went this route the 56 hours per week would jump.... at least for the first few years.

If I had to be honest, having never stepped foot in HI, I would say you are doing very well. Anywhere you go may be a step down in terms of pay/benefits (yours are pretty sweet). 8 years ago when I lost my job working for a steel fabricator doing design-build work in the North East. I was making about 40% of what you are now, $0 in overtime, no company retirement match, I had to pay 50% of my health insurance, I had to drive my own vehicle and pay for my own gas (I still remember when the gas cards were cut off an everyone's heads exploded).

Currently I am out on my own. You may still be doing better than I am, but my life is much more flexible than yours is. I can set my own schedule and can pick and choose which jobs I want to take on. I work more hours now than I did before. Paychecks are not steady as either.

The grass may be greener.... but I am not sure how much more green it can be.

 

[slickdeals]

One thing I have heard is that if the grass is greener, their water bill/lawn maintenance must be higher too.

 

[Agent666]

You can always cut the wife loose as well as another option. You'll have more of that pay in your pocket as a bonus.

 

[Guest090822]

In the Northeast with your qualifications you’d be looking at $125,000 a year with
most consultants working 50 hours a week.
Last time I was in Hawaii milk was $6.50 a gallon. My wife and I had an opportunity to work for the Navy. Thankfully a guy told us the truth and said “You can make a lot of money in Hawaii, but you can’t save a dime”. We didn’t take the jobs, which was great since I got claustrophobic after being on Oahu for 3 weeks. Islands are too small for me!

 

[STrctPono]

Is the $171k your compensation with OT or is the $171k your include all of the other stuff you included (OT, truck, health insurance etc)?

The $176k basically breaks down as follows:

$85,500.73 Salary
$33,635.82 Straight Time Overtime Pay
$30,000.00 End of Year Bonus
$4,837.00 Company Truck Lease and Gas
$22,198.16 Whole Life Insurance Policy (A supplementary Retirement Savings Avenue)
$176,171.71 Total

I forgot to mention above that in addition to this the company contributes $14,094 into a Profit Sharing Retirement Account.

As previously mentioned, company pays 100% health insurance premiums.

Not trying to gloat, just giving the facts. I actually don't tell anyone how much I make, even my own parents, so this is a bit weird for me. But since I don't know any of you personally and I am looking for input (partially based on my compensation) I don't see any harm.

 

[BridgeSmith]

So, salary, OT, bonus amounts to about $150k. Adjusting for the cost of living, you can likely find quite a few places in the continental US that would be comparable or better on an hourly basis, but of course finding something with total compensation comparable would be hard to come by. There are a few large industrial builders (Kiewit, for instance) that I hear have a similar model to your current employer.

I should mention, for comparison purposes, that I earn 8 hours a month of paid sick leave time, and currently 14 hours per month of paid vacation time (started at 8 hours vacation time, bumps 2 hours every 4 years). The state also has a very good health insurance plan, covering my entire family of 8, with less than $100/month out of pocket, and a pension-type retirement system.

It seems it boils down to your family priorities - you having more time to spend with your wife and family in a new place, or having the income you've all become accustomed to. I see some serious talks about lifestyle vs. family life in your future. There are other options to maintain your standard of living, also - you taking on some type of side hustle (Uber, engineering side jobs, teaching, etc.), which is unlikely to pay anything close to the hourly rate of your current OT, or your wife going to work.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10

 

[SteelPE]

So, your salary is OK (maybe not even that good), but it's the benefits that put you over the top. I would consider the benefits where you are extremely good. You might be able to fine a company on the mainland to pay you more of a base, but it will be extremely difficult to find a company with better benefits.

One items you seem to brush by is your 100% health insurance. That's another $18,000-$20,000/year benefit. So in reality with health insurance and retirement contribution you are around $210k in total compensation. My wife carries our health insurance (that's one of the reasons why I was able to go out on my own). Her company pays 90% of the premium. That is an extremely valuable benefit to our family, one that is never overlooked.

 

[r13]

Popular Employer Salaries for Structural Engineer (base salary only)

The Boeing Company - $79k

Kpff Consulting Engineers, Inc. - $64k

Aecom Corporation - $69k

Jacobs Engineering Group Inc - $84k

HNTB Corporation - $74k

Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc - $65k

Northrop Grumman Corporation - $85k

HDR, Inc. - $66k

I think the above figure is the average.

 

[jrw501]

To give you another point of reference, I work in a small-ish office of a small-ish firm in a city with a pretty high cost of living. We do exclusively bridge work (highway and railway). If I had to guess, my company would offer you a similar base salary +-5k and we pay straight time for OT work. I've been with this firm for about 10 years (since I finished grad school) and probably work an average of 44 hours/week (mostly 40 hour weeks with very occasional 50 hour weeks, and rare 60-70 hour weeks when there's emergency work or a big submittal). My company also pays my health insurance premiums (but they don't pay for your spouse or children) and has a bonus structure that I think would be about 8% of your salary. I'm happy to talk more specifically if there's a way to do it privately.

Relating to your points:

Benefits:
-I like the work that I do. -I think you'd probably like the work you did at my company, but who knows.

-Good pay. -It's hard to compare directly, but I'd guess you're making an effectively similar figure based on your description.

-Good benefits. -My company has decent benefits, but yours seem very good.

-Get paid for overtime (straight hourly pay). -Same

-Get a pay raise every year. -Same. ~3% historically, and 5-15% when promoted to a new position.

-Flexibility with my daily schedule (I can take a few hours off here and there to go to my kids school performance, or take care of a family matter, or even bring in a sick child to work with me if needed). -Same, boss doesn't care as long as 40 hours get put in. Even your personal working hours are adjustable.

-Challenging and exciting work projects. -Same, at least I think so.

-Not expected by my boss to bring in jobs for the company at this point in my career. -Same, I think at my company I'm at a point where I'm starting to help more with proposals and the like, but not actually responsible for getting projects, which I think will happen more when I'm at 13-15 years in.

-Live in paradise. Great place to raise kids. -Definitely not paradise here, but great public and private schools and tons to do.

-20 minute commute time. -Probably looking at 30-40 minutes here, though shorter is definitely possible depending where you live. For a while I lived about 2 miles from the office and would walk to work.

Downfalls:
-Work a lot of overtime. Office has a "work first" culture. I personally witnessed my coworker's marriage and family life deteriorate over the past few years due to his workaholic lifestyle. -Already discussed our overtime, definitely more work-life balance focused.

-My boss is king and pretty much has final say on all matters -My boss (and pretty much everyone above me) is extremely nice and while they have final say about projects they're managing/overseeing, they're all open to good ideas.

-Boss has an expectation of perfection, hates excuses, and has a tendency to yell and belittle people (however the last part has gotten a lot better in the past 3 or so years) -Boss has no expectation of perfection, but of course the more senior you are the fewer mistakes you should be making. The most important part to him is that you learn and don't repeat mistakes. No one at my company has ever yelled at or belittled anyone in my presence.

-Very steep learning curve. Especially related to FEA, no one in the office helps with analysis and you pretty much have to teach yourself everything. -Learning curve with us is there, but I wouldn't call it steep. Everyone helps as they can, but being in a small office, there's not always senior people to go to with the specific expertise and you do have to teach yourself some things.

-Taking vacation days is frowned upon but is allowed. I'm probably one of the few people in the office that utilizes all the days each year. -We're encouraged to take vacation and it's never been denied. My boss just asks that for week+ long trips that we give him a heads up for planning purposes. I think my company starts at 17 days, 22 days after 5 years. In addition to OT, you also have the ability to bank time if you'd rather use it for trips/time off. We also permit you to carry 40 hours into the next year, and any time not used you're compensated for.

-High cost of living (consistently ranked in top 3 cities in the country). Expensive place to raise kids. -Similar here probably (I don't have children).

-Due to the high work load and my poor time management, I regularly pull all-nighters trying to get projects out by the deadline. -In 10 years I haven't had an all-nighter. One of my co-workers did once, but that was related to some plotting issues we were having (we do our own drafting for the most part) and needed to get sorted before a submittal.

 

[NorthCivil]

Pay package appears awesome, maybe even proportionate with the obvious poor work environment and high workload.

For most people, this situation wouldn't be sustainable for long. Sounds like cracks are starting to appear (your use of adderall, your wife getting upset).

I would personally make a change sooner than later. whether it be interstate, within your area for less pay, or setting a boundary with your employer regarding working hours. Would he rather lose you entirely as an employee or be willing to live with reasonable working hours, so your life potentially isn't ruined like your co-worker?

If you are going to continue with business as usual, suggest evaluating the situation like an engineer. What are the risk factors of you burning out, your marriage deteriorating, your relationship with your child deteriorating, and put a price tag on those. Is the pay commensurate with the potential cost of those? Whatever you price your relationships at, only you can determine. Cost of divorce, child support and alimony should be easy enough to determine.

 

[PropertyGuy67]

There is a quite a bit that can be said for working from home. I have a deal where I do steady salaried work for a national firm, and side work (different market entirely, but still SE) for myself. All of it from home. My boss talks to me maybe once a month. That arrangement came out of years of working in a high stress environment, very similar to what you describe, especially the work-first mentality. In 2012 I made a conscious decision to carve out a very specific existence for myself within my field, and I made it happen. My only regret is not doing it sooner. My advice is this: if there's something you don't like, change it. Find the path that gives you everything you want, and make it happen.

 

[ldeem]

I would suggest you consider wealth accumulation potential as more important than salary alone. This would mean the salary, cost of living and cost of your (current/desired) lifestyle. Over time your wealth accumulation is what will give you options in the future. For example the ability to retire early, slow down work, open your own firm, etc.

As for your wife's concerns I suspect they are far more visceral than your own. Discussing the move from objective numbers based approach in not going to work, you may as well both be speaking different languages, I have a lot of experience here and it is a tough learning curve for a lot of technical people.

 

[IRstuff]

happy wife, happy life

That'll be $10, please; you can Venmo me the amount. Thanks for your patronage ;-)

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[BridgeSmith]

It sounds like your wife is very concerned about you, and if I may be so bold, she seems to have reason to be. Taking Adderall in order to be able to do your job is gambling with your health, your future, and frankly, your life. It is one of the legal (only with a prescription) forms of amphetamines, which are all fairly addictive, mood altering, and bad for your health. She's probably seeing what it's doing to you trying to keep up with this job, and she's scared. I would be. I don't really want to get into any details, but I know this from experience.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10

 

[KootK]

I came out of the gate a very career driven engineer with a particular interest in practicing high-end structural design. I stuck with that life philosophy for a good long while and lived in some US geographic locations that were well aligned with my professional aspirations. I also went out of my way to be as gregarious as I could, wherever I lived, so as to develop a meaningful social network in those places. And I've got a diverse group of fine friends to show for that.

Then, in 2007, I had to return to Alberta, Canada for family reasons. There aren't a lot of skyscrapers in Alberta and there are no earthquakes of any consequence. It's not a structural engineer's paradise.
As a result of the move:

1) I got ten good years of Sunday night scrabble tournaments with my elderly parents.

2) My brother and I say to heck with work every Friday around 3PM and, depending on the time of year, play 8-ball, hit the driving range, or play some tennis. I currently see no reason why this ought not continue for another 20-40 yrs.

3) My one and only niece likes me so much that her parents delicately yanked emergency guardianship away from my remote sister-in-law and conferred it to me. It's about the kids, of course, and not a competition. That said, I've totally won the competition. The key to this was a) putting the time and b) age inappropriate gifting. For her 9th, I got her the kind of drone that shuts down airports while everybody else was getting her educational crap and stuffies. Fools.

4) My wife likes to entertain and, when she throws a family dinner, it's now the real thing. We get a good turnout from people that we actually care about significantly. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, New years, Solstice, MLK... it's a blast.

5) Lining up baby sitting for the kids is a piece of cake and the kids have cultivated meaningful, lifelong relationships with their uncles, aunts, and grandparents. If I were stabbed to death in a Walmart parking lot this afternoon, their lives would go on more or less unaltered. I think of this as the very best possible version of life insurance. And I depend on no employer for it.

6) My wife's relationship with my parents is such that, if they end up having to come to live with us, she's legitimately on board. Well... my mom at least.

So the morals of my story have been this:

- family outweighs job, by a lot.
- KootK job obsession was foolish.

If I had it to do over again, I would actually do even more than just stay near my own family. In addition to that, I also would make a point of marrying someone who's family lived in the same geographical area as mine. My wife has a large family of very gregarious Germans/Poles spread out around Wisconsin and Michigan. It's non-stop celebrations, hunting cabin hangouts, and lake-house water-skiing excursions. If I could have access to all of that and my own people, I'd be living one heck of a life. Granted, the hormone ruled younger version of myself had a 0% chance of being able to exercise this kind of judgement in mate selection.

With respect to these kinds of things, your decision will have much to do with:

- where your people are.
- what quantity and quality of people you have.
- where your wife's people are.
- what quantity and quality of people your wife has.
- How many kids you have or plan to have.
- How old your kids are.

Since you're an analytical guy, I'd make a list like mine and go right ahead and try to put numbers to it. It's a rough science, of course, but when I add up the value of my #1-#6 above, I'm closing in on about $75k/yr. And I'm not an especially warm person.

 

[Rabbit12]

After looking at your detailed breakdown I think you could come very close to the base salary and bonus with the right company. Many companies are now offering straight time overtime as well so you could recoup some of that income as well.

I'd strongly consider Koot's advice above. There are some relationships that are impossible to put a value to and certainly won't last forever. On your death bed you won't be saying you'd wished you'd spent more time at work.