farewell to engineering education 7

[davefitz]

just heard a program on NPR , involving an interview with some MIT professors and other education "experts"- the current fear that too many eng school freshman are leaving the engineering curriculum due to difficulties adjusting to the discipline required led to their recommendation that:

-to retain more freshman, the curriculum should be modified to make it easier, to allow the student's "inherent creativity" to be expressed from the first day of the first class , and to postpone or cancel the teaching of fundamental physical principles .

- we saw this movie before- the exact same philosophy was applied to elementary and high school curriculum in the late 1960's in the US, and we now have a nation of drooling Ipod ticklers.

Well, have to get back to watching " dancing with the stars".

 

[controlsdude]

sorry this is a bit overblown.

The whole engineering exercise in college was just one big math exercise. If you got the calc and diffirential calc down you were more than likely to pass all those other higher level so called control courses.

As far as freshmen bombing out, that is so typical of the adjustment to 1st year of college. Either they partied too much, never study, or just plain lazy. Nothing difficult about 1st year of college.

Maybe the problem is the college? Not the student if you ask me. I think our higher level thinkers in the ivory towers just do not know how to teach or just despise the students. I have not seen very many nice professors in college. Most are just plain mean in their attitudes toward students.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I don't how it is today, but 40+ years ago when I was engineering school most of my professors and instructors treated up fairly. Granted, we had a few SOB's but for most part I think our schools faculty had the best interests of BOTH the student and the reputation of the school in mind. From what a few of them explained, they trying to first weed-out the people who really didn't belong there, for whatever reason, so as not to waste the student's time, their parent's money or the schools resources, which of course include their time and sweat. Second, they wanted to make sure that your first screw-up was here in class and not after you had graduated where not only job but the reputation of the school was on the line. Several of my instructors, particularly during my Senior year, came right out and said up-front that they were going to treat the class as if we were working for a company and that we would be learning more than just what was in the books, but also an attitude that would help us later on and I have to say that this proved to be 100% accurate.

And I still think it applies today to my alma mater as I now have dealings with them at least once or twice a year as they are one of our 'partner' schools where we have provided software and resources which are used in their curriculum and as a result there are regular opportunities for myself and others to go back on campus and participate in student events and activities which are tied to our endowments and donations.

And that being said, we are in the process of preparing our 4 granddaughters for possible attendance when they finish highschool. They live in Texas and my school is back in Michigan, but since I've an alumni in good standing and if they achive certain academic levels in high school they will be allowed to attend and pay in-state or resident tuition. As part of this process we are going to be sending the two oldest girls (ages 13 and 10) to a summer program this next year where they will get a chance to experience the campus life and as well as participating in a 'exploration' of their choice, ranging from computers, to environmental awareness, basic physics and engineering, multimedia productions, geology, etc.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Here's another article about what some of the issues may be today with respect students entering engineering school versus staying until they graduate with that engineering degree:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/why-students-leave-the-engineering-track/

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[jgailla]

Interesting article. When I was in college in the late 1990's and early 2000's (I have a BA and a BS, so it's not just engineering) the teachers generally stated that for every hour spent in class, two to three should be spent out of class studying.
I found that I could generally get good grades with about 1.5 hours of study for every hour in class in engineering. The BA in liberal arts required closer to 2 hours because of all the reading and research required.
I am a book lover, and so buy old textbooks when I see a good one. I have several from the 1930's through the 1950's, and it certainly appears that more study was involved during that time period because of the increased difficulty of the study questions.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

When I entered Engineering School (1971) - at orientation - some half brained admin type person said look to your left and your right. 2 out of 3 of you will not be here in 4 years - and he was about right. So were they accepting just about any body??? Probably!!!

When I took my daughter to the SAME state university 20 years later for orientation - the DEAN of students met with us. He gave us his cell number, e-mail address, home address, etc, etc. I NEVER EVER met the Dean of students when I was there!!!

They now offered all kinds of computer labs, tutor help, actually good and healthy meals.

He explained that they figured out it was cheaper to be more picky and graduate more students than the "Old" way!!

BTW - they now required 4 years of Math, English and Science as a minimum to just apply!! A couple of her friends didn't get in and this was a state university ---- Mizzou RAH!!


While we make think things are "easier" - I think they have a better "crop" of students and they are probably learning more than I did!!!.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Gee, they told us the same thing in 1965 when I started in engineering school. But my school was small enough that I actually did know the Dean of Students (in fact, he came and visited me in the hospital when I had to have emergency appendectomy surgery during my Junior year).

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

When I was an undergraduate (1977), no one in the Freshman class had taken calculus in high school and very few had tested out of freshman math (either Pre-Calc or Algebra and Trig). When my sons were in High School every single student who had any interest in college was in AP Calculus--when my youngest started college the Freshmen who needed to take calculus (let alone Pre-Calculus) were treated as dummies destined for the short bus.

Pulling freshman math and calculus out to high school should leave room in the college curriculum to put in more engineering. I'm not certain it really works that way. My son's first year was pretty heavy on stuff like "History of Religion" (in a state school) and "Logic".

David

 

[Gumpmaster]

Is one solution maybe to have some of the individual engineering associations develop their own accreditations. e.g. maybe the NCSEA (National Council of Structural Engineers Associations) develops a voluntary structural engineer accreditation as a supplement to ABET accreditation. Savy companies could seek out grads from those few accredited schools and it would develop market differentiation between apparently similar schools.

Maybe that would create a race to the top for a few select schools rather than a race towards mediocrity. Most schools would still be mediocre, some would excel, and those would be identifiable.

 

[cranky108]

How will on-line schools effect existing schools?

The thought is more compettion, not less, should drive the costs down to where they are more affordable.

From what I have seen is the biggest cost is houseing.