Fees for Precast Parking Structure as EOR

[KootK]

I need to work out some competitive fees for some precast parking structures on a $/SF or $/Stall basis. Anybody have any advice to offer? Details:

- All above grade.

- Low seismic.

- Ontario is the market but data from elsewhere is better than nothing.

- It'll be the model where the design team sets the layout and I do foundations, lateral, and preliminary sizing. A precaster will be driving it home with the detailed design when all is said and done.

- There's talk of doing it Revit. I'd be interested to receive input on that front. Fee impact? Pitfalls to watch out for? Trying to Revit model something that's basically a ramps makes me cringe a bit.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[Budding_SE]

I recently finished one and we charged 0.85% the project cost. 100% revit.

 

[ATSE]

So is the precast design-builder also the engineer of record for the superstructure? If so, add more time for coordination, but subtract a lot more for going from 80% to 100%, with total fee less than 1% of project construction cost.
Revit is pretty schweeet, but not something you pick up in a day. If this is your first major Revit project, budget for a lot of learning and cursing.
Unless you are a Revit expert, you will need to rely heavily on a cracker-jack Revit (Structure) expert. Ramps are no problem in Revit.
I would be explicit about exactly what is expected of your end of the Revit model. Will updates occur via back and forth exchanges? Each exchange is an event.
Will the end-user require robust scheduling and take-offs from your model?

 

[KootK]

So is the precast design-builder also the engineer of record for the superstructure?

I'll be the EOR, taking overall responsibility. The precaster's responsibility will be the delegated design of the superstructure as you've suggested.

Will the end-user require robust scheduling and take-offs from your model?

Not sure about robust but certainly some scheduling and take offs. I'll need to show quantities of beams, columns, tees etc. I won't need to get into rebar and connection hardware or anything detailed like that.

The estimates provided so far strike me as kind of high for something like this (0.85%-1.0% construction cost). Are we not used to full building design fees coming in around 0.65% construction cost? For example:

3000 stalls
1,125,000 SF
$6,500 construction cost per stall?
@1.00% = $195,000; $0.17 /SF
@0.85% = $166,000; $0.15 /SF

Does that sound about right? I suppose that a parking structure's cost is much more related to structure than a normal building's cost so maybe that justifies the higher %construction number?

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[dcarr82775]

I don't have any pricing numbers, but 0.85% construction cost seems like a really nice fee for a cast in place type garage. I would expect fees substantially lower than that on a precast type garage where as the EOR your work is pretty minimal.

REVIT is an absolute bear to learn, but youtube videos have always found me the answer. If this is your first REVIT job I suggest you carry a set of drawings in CAD as well. In a crunch you can give the CAD drawings and promise REVIT once you get it together.

 

[jayrod12]

Somehow your math seems a little wonky, not sure how .85% is worth more than 1%.

I would agree with the last statement that since this is a heavy structural type project, it would deserve a higher proportion of the %construction number than a standard building.

 

[KootK]

Somehow your math seems a little wonky, not sure how .85% is worth more than 1%.

Noted and corrected. Thanks for that.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[MotorCity]

For "typical" design arrangements, 1% to 1.5% of construction cost is typical for the structural fee. However, for buildings that are primarily delegated design (i.e precast, tilt up, PEMB, etc.) where another engineer does most of the heavy lifting, a lower fee of 0.65% to 0.85% is in the ballpark. Granted, as the EOR, your risk is more or less the same whether you design or delegate the whole thing. Unfortunately, we seem to get paid for our level of effort and not our risk.

 

[jayrod12]

Who's taking responsibility for all the building envelope type stuff, joint treatment etc.?

 

[dik]

I would think that 1% would be closer... As EOR, you are taking responsibility for detailing, joint treatment, etc. as Jayrod alludes to. Is the garage 'odd' shaped... for 3000 vehicles, you should have an overall area of approx 1,000,000 ft2. Also, your cost per spot should be closer to $7000; did you undertake a detailed costing?

Dik

 

[KootK]

Thanks gentlemen, that's a great help. Anybody care to comment on my construction cost estimate of $6500 per stall / $17 per SF estimate?

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[Budding_SE]

KookK: I can help you with modelling in revit. I am extemely proficient in revit. If interested let me know.

 

[KootK]

I may indeed be interested. Thanks for offering to chip in budding SE.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[dik]

As noted in my posting just before yours, I think the $6500 is a bit light... would have anticipated $7000 to $7500 for an efficient design and as high as $9000 for a garage that 'has to fit somewhere'. Also with isles, etc, for a well designed garage, the area per parking spot should be around 3000 ft2. Have you looked at using 12" hollowcore?

Dik

 

[KootK]

That's all very helpful dik, thank you.

did you undertake a detailed costing?

This kinda is the detailed costing I'm afraid. 12 HR turnaround on proposal.

Have you looked at using 12" hollowcore?

Are you teasing me? Anytime somebody proposes hollowcore for parking 'round here, they get roasted on durability issues. It was ajk1 that took me task on it back in 2015.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it. And that was just for an ancillary ramp.

 

[dik]

I did the design for the Health Science Centre parkade in Winnipeg about 40 years ago... and, it's still standing... 12" HC planks... They put an addition on it about 20 years ago... Added: Should have added... it has a topping and a membrane...

Dik

 

[KootK]

Well there we go: one positive data-point for hollow core parking.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[dik]

An advantage of Winnipeg... no freeze-thaw issues... freezes in the fall and thaws in the Summer...

Dik

 

[dik]

I was just talking to a contractor... you might look at your numbers again... he thought $7500 was too low... The last one, a CIP concrete one cost closer to $9000. I'll see if I can get some recent photos... I'll see if I can dig up an old one...

Dik

 

[haynewp]

For these percents of the construction cost, are you including site work? I assume not as that would be high based on the fee I usually get. Also, do you actually need to produce all the elevated levels in Revit and show the precast preliminary sizes or just giving input for the rest of the design team? If Revit may be a problem, I think you could get by with not showing all the superstructure but I have seen it both ways (the EOR only produced only foundation drawings, and the other way the EOR produces elevated plans and shows major details based on preliminary precast sizes).