Fewer Engineers/More Work 28

[metengr]

Has anybody heard or have read stats on the number of engineering graduates per year, and trends?

I was talking with my friends kid the other day about the engineering profession (20 years for me). I know that the job market is highly dependant on location. However, in my discussions with him, it seemed like fewer students are entering engineering schools after the computer dot.com bubble blew up. Does it seem like most college students want to make easy money the easy way versus working as engineers?

If this is the case, I would expect a critical shortage of engineers in the next 5 to 10 years.

 

[Lorentz]

Hi moltenmetal!

Your last post raised another scary aspect about how the engineering profession is regulated i.e. students going straight from school into the consulting business.

Have you reviewed the thread:

"Reference amnesty" for engineers in industry seeking PE licensure
thread731-92468

and seen how references seem to be given to complete strangers? And also how the regulating boards make no attempt to verify them?

In the thread on math it became generally acknowledged that professors don't really teach engineering. Combine that with the thread on references, and you have got to wonder who is protecting the public?

I'm afraid the stage is being set for a disaster. Some contractor will cut costs by hiring a cheap recent grad who has a stamp but no real experience, and this "engineer" will produce an unsafe design. If something like this occurs, I hope the lawyers sue everyone from the rookie engineer, to the board that gave him his stamp, the references who vouched for him, and all the way back to the university that gave him his degree.

 

[pmkPE]

When I was about to graduate from college I spoke with one of my professors that I had great respect for. I told him that I wanted to go into field engineering - working directly on construction sites. He strongly recommended that I find a position with a firm where I would be working for two years at a drafting table so that I would learn how things fit together. I followed his advice and I am glad that I did. Had I gone directly into construction I never would have been able to become a consulting engineer.

By the way here in the "states" before one can become licensed, a minimum of four years of (acceptable)experience under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer in one's specific discipline is required before one can take the corresponding engineering license exam. I think that works.

I also think that much of what our collective complaints are about relates to a lack of enforcement by ourselves, the state registration boards regarding poor quality engineering. Some of this is based on watered down course work, some of it is due to the laws of supply and demand - currently there are too many engineers that are way more productive than their counterparts of twenty years ago in the market; coupled with the public perception that if something or some service is advertised its competitor is equal so that the only way to differentiate is to go by the price. Just check out the never ending supply of advertisements from the local stores and the advertisements on the television. What catches the public's attention: special sales. Who has the lowest prices. Our jobs and that of our professional societies, in my opinion, should be to elaborate, sell if you will, our qualities and the advantages to qualification based selection of our services. Not prices. Given an adequate amount of time and compensation we can most often save our clients the costs of our fees by saving them money in either up-front costs of construction and/or the life cycle costs of the product. As the saying has been made pick (only) two: fast, inexpensive, quality.

 

[ischgl99]

Lorentz, I think the medical doctor comparison is a bit of a stretch. In my years as an engineer, I have never and probably will never consider myself the professional equivalent of someone required to complete med school and residency before becoming an MD. A Pharmacist is closer to an engineer, but these positions require certification. An engineer does not need an EIT or PE to be an engineer, you don't even need an engineering degree in America to be an engineer.

Molten, your politicians really screwed you with the immigration problem. I worked in Toronto for a year on a project (and know what you are competing against) and I don't envy your situation.

As to the boards being more lenient in the references for the PE exam, I think they realize the references have less value then they did in the past. PEs in industry have become a bit of the "old boys club" and if they like you, will help you any way they can to assist you in getting your PE. A former manager gave me alot of advise on how to word the application to make it more likely to get approved and things to avoid as red flags. I'm not as worried about the lower application standards as I am of the leniency on dealing with violations.

 

[Lorentz]

Hi mbensema!

For my slant on the medical doctor comparison, see my 2nd June 15 post in the thread:

How much math(s) do we really /need/ to learn?
thread730-96797

We may actually have some common ground here, but my interpretation is different.

You will note that you are now the proud possessor of a 2nd star. I gave you the 2nd one for your comment:

"PEs in industry have become a bit of the "old boys club" and if they like you, will help you any way they can to assist you in getting your PE."

The subject of an "old boys club" is often taboo, but it crops up in most human activities. It is actually the main reason for my question 1. in my July 17 post. To repeat it:

"1. Do you know a successful engineer who is willing to mentor you after you graduate? If the answer is no, that's strike one."

What I'm trying to do here, is to make a young person realize that not all fields are open to outsiders. Someone with no connections to the field of engineering may have a rough time landing their first job after graduation, which may finish their career before it starts.

I have reason to believe the situation is even worse in the field of Law, and I think this is why many young people succeed in getting their Law degree but fail to become lawyers.

The big problem, is that people employed in the education industry will adamantly deny there is any such thing as an "old boys club" since admitting it might lead to a loss of tuition. As pmkPE observed:

"College is BIG Business!"

I repeat that I would not recommend engineering to any young person who does not have a close personal connection to someone who is already a successful engineer.

 

[moltenmetal]

Lorentz: that's going a bit too far in my view. If you have co-op experience in university, you can make it without mentorship or connections in industry. The over-supply situation makes it far harder for sure, and connections always help, but there's been no "old boys club" preventing me or others I've known from getting work. And I guarantee I'm not part of any old boys network myself!

We agree that without co-op experience, landing a first job without connections in this job market is very difficult. But it's not because of some "old boys network"- it's because of over-supply relative to demand. There's no impetus for firms to take a risk on untried immigrants or recent grads when there are numerous well-qualified and experienced people knocking daily on their doors.

There's a difference between nepotism and social networking. People hire others they know because it represents a lower hire risk than picking someone from off the street. It's human nature, not a particular attribute of our profession versus others.

 

[Lorentz]

Hi moltenmetal!

I'm not saying that it's impossible for someone to succeed in engineering (or law etc.) without connections, I know of several people who have.

What I am saying is that there will be so few good engineering job openings for new grads that I would not recommend engineering to any young person who is not one of the "old boys".

There are a lot of "token" engineering jobs that are pure drudgery. These are filled by people with degrees for "public relations" reasons and they are usually avoided by people who are "old boys" and who know the score.

I think that are enough "old boys" to avoid any serious shortage of engineers, so my advice to young people stands.

Guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[ischgl99]

My "old boys network" comment was meant only for getting the PE and not about getting the first job. Some people without the proper experience will get glowing recommendations simply because coworkers have it and want you as part of the club. As a mechanical engineer, I never thought much about getting the PE since I really don't need it, but with some companies hiring non engineers for engineering positions, it will help distingish an engineer from a technician with an engineering title. My group of engineering friends are getting the certification pretty much solely for this reason and are using each other for references, hence the "old boys club"

Lorentz, you have a very good point about the best jobs going to those who have the connections. Networking of course helps anyone in any field, but is not to mean that you can't get a good job without it. I think many of the recent grads are under the mistaken impression that their grades speak for themselves and don't fully understand the value of networking.

aresrope, I completely agree with you. Anyone who askes me about going into engineering gets a fair and honest advice about what they may be doing upon graduation, but they do not get any predictions of the future. I went Aerospace Engineering during the end of the cold war and by time I graduated, the market had completely collasped. I am now working in the wastewater process equipment market and don't regret how anything turned out.

 

[Lorentz]

Hello All!

Some interesting posts today! For example:

"Anyone dispensing career advice should never dissuade someone from persuing their interests, regardless of how limited they may see the field. Especially since these know-it-alls have no idea whatsoever what the job market will be like by the time they graduate. In fact, unless you have a crystal ball, the only advice you should give someone is how they may go about their studies, plan their career, good schools, etc.."

While it is true, I don't have a crystal ball, I wouldn't say I "have no idea whatsoever what the job market will be like by the time they graduate." I have a couple of ideas on that.

First, thanks to metengr who provided the wonderful link:

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguide_offshoring_faq

I know that:

India is adding about twice as many college graduates to its workforce per year as the United States (1.2 million in the United States versus 2.5 million in India ). Of these Indian graduates, 250,000 earned engineering degrees, compared to 70,000 bachelor's degrees in engineering awarded here. Furthermore, the 2003 entering class for Indian engineers is reported to be 375,000, a large jump that suggests the Indian population is responding to expectations of the global market's forthcoming demand in this field.

And second, I know that my company prefers NOT to hire new graduates, and we have no shortage of applications from experienced people looking for work.

Now when I put these two together, how could I in good conscience advise a young person to study engineering? I know 4 years from now there will be a huge number of graduates from India (and how many from other third world countries?), and I know my company would not be hiring this person. If they came to me 4 years from now out of work and in debt, what could I tell them?

I still think that dannym provided the best advice of all in his original post of the thread:

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs
thread730-63828

he states there:

"I don't believe that a person is born an engineer and will only be happy if they become an engineer. Obviously, if current trends continue, a lot of engineers are going to have to seek happiness in another career if they want to earn a living."

 

[QCE]

Note India has 4 times the population of the states.

 

[Lorentz]

Hi QCE,

The fact that India's population is larger is not the main reasons they are producing so many engineering grads. It is because they anticipate that their graduates will be employed on many projects that were formerly done by 1st world engineers.

Note the last part of my excerpt:

"Furthermore, the 2003 entering class for Indian engineers is reported to be 375,000, a large jump that suggests the Indian population is responding to expectations of the global market's forthcoming demand in this field."

 

[gillbal]

Gentlemen,

Quite the interesting forum you have here. Makes for some very enlightining reading.
In my short experience in the engineering industry I have noticed several things:
1. Demand for intermediate experienced engineers is high. Particularly, in the fields of geotechnical and hydrogeology.
2. Willingness to relocate increases job prospects.
3. Employers, at least the ones that I have dealt with, are starved for North American trained engineers with 4-5 years experience and are responding by increasing wages.
4. Business developement skills are vital, perhaps, even more important than technical expertise.

I welcome your comments.

 

[QCE]

My company is also having a hard time finding experienced engineers in the power industry (electrical and mechanical). We put out 2 postings and did not even get 1 professional engineer apply.

 

[Lorentz]

Hello gillball and QCE!

Nice to hear some good news!

Now the question is, since recruiting is forbidden in this forum, how does an unemployed engineer contact either of you?

Suggestions anyone?

 

[QCE]

Our new postings will be going out soon and we will be posting on Monster.com this time on top of our other regular posting spots.

That is all I will say here.

I will stress that gillball made a good point about willingness to relocate. I understand that it is not always easy but it is a big boost to your job prospects.

I thought some of you may be interested in the following link:

http://www.apeg.bc.ca/library/compsurvey/employ_comp_survey_2002.pdf

 

[GregLocock]

We're in the same boat. I think we're looking for 140 experienced, degreed, industry exempt, automotive engineers in the next two years. At a rough guess 80% of them will come from overseas. I'd rather take on recent graduates and train them up, but hey, I don't make the big decisions. Certainly cost-wise I can see the advantage in buying experience.

I think most of the doom and gloom comes from engineers who are unwilling to relocate, since I can think of at least four countries which are recruiting internationally for experienced automotive engineers - Malaysia, Korea, Australia, and China, and I'm pretty sure India, Taiwan, Thailand and the Phillipines would also be looking.

By the way I'm not recruiting. If you haven't seen our ads then you aren't in the target audience.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[pmkPE]

ENR's top 500 design firm article can be reached at the following link. It discusses the costs involved with staying in business.

http://enr.construction.com/features/bizlabor/archives/040419.asp

 

[Lorentz]

Hello All!

GregLocock raises an important point that I would like to comment on. He states:

"I think most of the doom and gloom comes from engineers who are unwilling to relocate, since I can think of at least four countries which are recruiting internationally for experienced automotive engineers..."

I put the word "experienced" in bold because this is often the catch 22 that trips up young people just entering their fields. Many new grads would love to relocate, but they have little to offer prospective employers in other geographic locations.

I have known several experienced engineers who relocated; in some cases it was their own idea, in others down-sizing forced them to look for new employment. Fortunately, their experience had provided them with a marketable skill.

In an earlier post I pointed out that there are only 4 veterinary schools in all of Canada, so young people who want to become veterinarians have no choice but to travel to one of these schools for their training (unless they were lucky enough to be born in one of the 4 cities where these schools are located).

I would also suggest, that a young person intent on engineering as a career, should strongly consider taking their education at a school with a co-op program, even if it means they must sacrifice the convenience of studying at at a local school. I believe that this would provide them with a significant edge over grads from non co-op programs.