Fined by the city for claiming to be an engineer - Suing on grounds of free speech 62

[Terratek]

This article popped up in my google feed. I thought it was interesting, a little funny and a little ridiculous.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html

Being familiar with licensing laws, and being an engineer, I agree with the city. I can see how easily a lay person could buy the spin, though.

 

[MotorCity]

I think the distinction needs to be made between engineer and Professional Engineer and not over who is and who is not an engineer. Engineer is a very loose term that can mean anyone who is a problem solver (typically with an engineering degree). There are many engineers out there in industries that don't require a PE but they perform the same analytical tasks as a PE. The fact that they do not possess a PE license does not make them any more or less of an engineer. I have worked with several non licensed engineers that were more technically capable and more well versed in codes than engineers with a PE. In my opinion, the term "engineer" should not be regulated but rather the term "Professional Engineer" which implies that you generally have 4 years of experience and passed a test.

 

[dgallup]

I always thought the only prohibition to the general use of the term engineer was in the naming of a business or hiring yourself out as a professional engineer. I've got a BSME, took the EIT but never saw any reason to take the PE exam. Every job title at every company I've worked for says I'm some kind of engineer. This gut was not misrepresenting himself as a professional engineer and was not soliciting money from the populace for his engineering skills. I don't see the Oregon state board as having any standing and wish the guy well in his campaign against red light cameras.

----------------------------------------

The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[canwesteng]

Should someone be a doctor before completing residency, or a lawyer before passing the bar? I think we should hold the title of engineer to a similar standard. Granted, I'm in Canada, where this is the case.

 

[CheckerHater]

Should someone be a doctor before completing residency?

Yes, PhD. You don't have to be a Doctor of Medicine to call yourself a "doctor"

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[msquared48]

And this is how msn spins it...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...cameras/ar-BBApo0N?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[rotw]

Sorry for the little offtopic here, I am just curious...
I am an engineer (because of degree / experience / professional registration) but I am not "practicing" engineering as such due to the fact that I am unemployed (on long leave or whatsoever). Am I still allowed to call myself an engineer ? say my question applies to the US context / regulatory for the practice of engineering.

 

[msquared48]

By everything you have stated, of course. No worries. Current Employment status matters not...

If that were true, then every time you were laid off, you could not say that you were an engineer to a potential employer - ridiculous thought.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[CheckerHater]

Am I still allowed to call myself an engineer ?

In Oregon you better not.

Here is the screenshot from the site that is a bit difficult to navigate (but you can go and try:

http://ij.org/case/oregon-engineering-speech/

)

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[stevenal]

"I am an engineer (because of degree / experience / professional registration) but I am not "practicing" engineering as such due to the fact that I am unemployed (on long leave or whatsoever). Am I still allowed to call myself an engineer ? say my question applies to the US context / regulatory for the practice of engineering."

If the /s above are ORs, no. But there is no requirement to be employed as an engineer to use the title. Keep your PDHs and Oregon registration up to date and you are good.

Did anyone notice that he called himself an engineer to the very board that regulates the profession in Oregon? And after being warned the first time he continued to do so? The man was looking for a fight, got what he wanted, and even paid the fine. While the board claimed that providing the calculations constituted engineering without a license, I don't believe they would have fined him or anyone else for doing math as long as they don't refer to themselves as engineers while unregistered.

I concur that the yellows are too short. If I happen to blink at the wrong moment, I've missed the change and compensate by either over hard braking or by pushing the yellow.

 

[hokie66]

I suppose if he had called himself a mathematician or a physicist, he would have been fine. Makes no sense. I hope he wins the free speech claim. How wide is this protection of the word "engineer" in the lower case? In Australia, you have to be licensed to practice the profession, but "ABC Engineering" can be a welding shop. In my experience, there is no damage done to the Profession of Engineering by the use of the word in this manner. Conversely, here the folks who drive trains are not called "engineers", but rather "train drivers".

 

[msquared48]

And "ABC Engineering" does have to be licensed as a business, where, on the application for licensing, the nature of the business is identified. The critical word here is "licensed" to be legal.

When I was a young child my first perception of the word "Engineer" pertainied to my train set locomotives, and the fact that my grandfather was a locomotive engineer for Southern Pacific on a run from Plains to Savannah.

It was only in the late fifties that I assigned another meaning to the word.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[IRstuff]

Oregon's law makes it very clear that anything that relates to public safety requires licensed engineers.

> calling himself an engineer, when unlicensed, is a violation of the law
> performing AND publishing an analysis of a safety-related issue, when unlicensed, is a violation of the law.

His suit should be more about the safety imperative that's inherent in the law; there should an obligation to report hazards to public safety, regardless of whether he's licensed or not. If the board is truly intended to protect public safety, then they are shirking their public responsibility as protectors of the public by punishing someone who potentially has pointed out a valid issue with the timing of the lights. The board, at no time, has claimed that his argument has no merit, therefore, they simply punishing him for being ethical and safety-conscious.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[3DDave]

How long ago (or do they still) prevent motorists from putting gasoline in their own cars?

I only visited Oregon with a car once and the guy definitely filled far above the fill-no-more level.

 

[rotw]

IRstuff,

I had similar thought as you have summarized. I felt I needed to "hold my horses" when I realized that the board (to their credit) has given a first warning. I guess a "smart" engineer who is genuinely concerned by public safety would have heard the message (their was a traffic signaling light saying "be careful") and corrected their attitude accordingly - I'd say as bare minimum - in order not to jeopardize by himself the process and the claim at once. In this case tI suppose it was just a matter of tweaking a bit his title, "technical expert, auto-claimed specialist, etc." all of these are example of non controlled titles which can provide alternative, if I am correct.
PS: I am not working in US, so I took the latitude to share a philosophical opinion on the subject, hope its OK

 

[BigInch]

If you respect your profession and want to continue to make a living at it, it is important to keep standards at the highest level possible. It is as much a marketing concern as anything else. Engineering today, in spite of board efforts, which have been extremely poor, has become little more than a commodity. If this trend continues, things will degrade to levels seen in England, where anyone that can pick up a screwdriver is an engineer. If you think that's good for your pay grade, you've got a real surprise coming. If you want to know how to do this right, aspire to duplicate the AMA. They've got the cat in the bag. Would you even think to go to just any doctor in training for your bypass surgury? Even at 25% of the cost? No you want insurance, lots of it, so you can afford to go to a real doctor. One with plenty of experience.

Technology is stealing American jobs. Stop H1-Bs for robots.

 

[CWB1]

If this trend continues, things will degrade to levels seen in England, where anyone that can pick up a screwdriver is an engineer.

I mostly agree with your point as I firmly believe that in the US we have made it far too easy to become a PE, however having started on the shop floor I also need to point out that many overseas including the British have commonly used "engineer" to mean a machinist for centuries.

 

[JNieman]

@BigInch

I wouldn't ever sacrifice the ability to criticize the government. Some repeat that the board is /only/ against him for using the title 'engineer' but that is simply not true. Their writing has been directly linked to multiple times in this thread. I suggest reading them in their entirety. Especially this gem:

http://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/OR-Math-Jarlstrom-Final-Default-Order-IJ084769xA6322.pdf[/URL]]
18 By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the
19 critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public
20 for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and "worldwide" traffic signals,
21 which signals are public equipment, processes and works, Jarlstrom applied special knowledge
22 of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such creative work as investigation,
23 evaluation, and design in connection with public equipment, processes, and works. J arlstrom
Page 6 - FINAL ORDER BY DEFAULT
1 thereby engaged in the practice of engineering under ORS 672.005(1)(b). By doing so through
2 the use of algorithms for the operation of traffic control systems, and through the use of the
3 science of analysis, review, and application of traffic data systems to advise members of the
4 public on the treatment of the functional characteristics of traffic signal timing, Jarlstrom
5 engaged, specifically, in traffic engineering under OAR 820-040-0030(1 )(b) and (2)(a). By
6 engaging the practice of engineering (specifically, traffic engineering) without registration,
7 J arlstrom violated ORS 672.020(1 ), 672.045(1) and OAR 820-010-0730(3 )( c) on a second
8 occas10n.

To rephrase the verbiage:

By applying knowledge of mathematics and logic, Jarlstrom was engaging in unlicensed engineering.

If this does not get challenged and overturned, this is a dangerous precedent. If upheld, this supports a State employing a monopoly on the practice of mathematics, physics, or logic and prevents anyone not licensed by the same State from legally being able to criticize or evaluate the engineering of the State.

Their suit goes far beyond someone simply professing themselves as an engineer without appropriate licensing.

 

[PMR06]

This isn't about free speech. It’s about an egomaniac and a couple of ambulance chasers who agree with him to turn this into a media spectacle.

If this guy were half an “engineer”, he would have filled out the paperwork and paid the nominal fee to get licensed in Oregon. Then he could have engaged in this argument in a professional, respectable manner.

 

[JNieman]

I think we decided, long ago, with poll taxes, that you can't impose "nominal fees" on Constitutionally protected rights, including free speech. Redressing Government practices is one of the basic tenets of free speech.

He might be an egomaniac - that's completely moot. His lawyers might be ambulance chasers. That's completely moot. All that matters are the facts and whether or not they're right. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. In fact, this isn't even about /him/ anymore but rather about all Oregonians and possibly Americans.

To say that anyone mailing in some mathematical proofs and illustrations is "performing engineering" in a manner requiring registration and license with the State Board is ludicrous. The requirements are not "nominal" seeing as how you must have a degree, years of work under a P.E., and then sit for a test (in most States) so I don't see how that's something to so easily brush off.

 

[IRstuff]

"If this does not get challenged and overturned, this is a dangerous precedent. If upheld, this supports a State employing a monopoly on the practice of mathematics, physics, or logic and prevents anyone not licensed by the same State from legally being able to criticize or evaluate the engineering of the State."

This is hardly a precedent. I would guess that the basic wording is from the national board.

“Professional engineer,” within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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