Fined by the city for claiming to be an engineer - Suing on grounds of free speech 62

[Terratek]

This article popped up in my google feed. I thought it was interesting, a little funny and a little ridiculous.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2017/04/beaverton_man_claims_oregon_st.html

Being familiar with licensing laws, and being an engineer, I agree with the city. I can see how easily a lay person could buy the spin, though.

 

[CheckerHater]

So, if I attempt self-service AND also attempt to calculate how much fuel I need, that's probably GULAG?

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[msquared48]

In my professional opinion, as a former licensee in the State of Oregon, the State Board of the State of Oregon has over-reached its authority, and needs some firm limits set by the courts. I believe this censuring will also be found to be unethical.

Pumping gas is another issue, but has nothing to do with first amendment rights. Censuring free speech does.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[fel3]

hydrae…

Every time I travel to Oregon, I am frustrated by the law prohibiting self-service gasoline pumping. In my 42 years of driving--mostly in California, but also in more about 35 other states--I have never once set myself on fire performing self-service gasoline pumping. Nor have I set myself on fire when I poured gasoline into the tank of my lawnmower or my edger.

So, if I may translate:

§480.315 "The State of Oregon hereby make a bunch of false and unsubstantiated claims about the hazards of self-service gasoline pumping, discrimination, etc. If we make the list long enough and we whine enough about the fools in other states, maybe someone will believe us."

§480.341 "If you live in a low population county, we don't care about you. You are free to personally tackle the extremely hazardous task of self-pumping your own gasoline. If you set yourself on fire, good luck. Low population counties have limited emergency services."

§480.349 "We care a little more about motorcyclists than residents of low population counties, but not a whole lot more. You can self pump your own gasoline, but only after the 14 IQ attendant hands you the pump handle."

Fred

==========
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--Winston S. Churchill

 

[IRstuff]

"maybe someone will believe us"

The law got passed, so someone believes that crap.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[cvg]

I wasn't aware that you could get full service at a gas station anywhere in the lower 48. do they wash your windows too? with the extremely adverse weather in Oregon, dirty windows are a serious safety risk and self service clerks cannot be held responsible for maintaining a squeegee in working condition especially with the slick pavement and when they get stolen all the time.

 

[Sparweb]

Gasoline, bureaucratic red tape, ethical dilemmas in engineering... Reminds me of a story. This is the mamby-pamby side of the story:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/Plus+station+owners+fined+leak/9275546/story.html

What the article does not tell you is that the operator of the gas station tried to respond immediately to the leak as soon as the leak was detected, but they were blocked by city of Calgary administration, who would not issue a permit to dig. The excavation required a road to be dug up, hazardous waste management, and the gas station operator got wound up in red tape, forbidden from digging out the leaking fuel tank. Months later, the tank was still underground, the leak was still spreading, and neighboring houses were starting to smell it in their basements. They had the equipment on site ready and waiting to go all that time.


STF

 

[CheckerHater]

Wow, just wow.

The scariest words in English language: "I am from the government and I am here to help"

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[IRstuff]

So, no police, fire, military, or even water, sewage, or road repair, then?

You know what's even scarier, it's when an airline tells you they're committed to a "great passenger experience."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[btrueblood]

"You know what's even scarier, it's when an airline tells you they're committed to a "great passenger experience.""

Yeah, they will throw you off the plane if you don't like it.

 

[3DDave]

It sometimes works both ways.

A very interesting guy in Saint Louis built a museum called the City Museum. It started out as a collection of building details from demolished buildings but soon became an increasingly wide collection of those things people develop a nostalgia for plus recycling of industrial discards in a most interesting fashion. The most impressive part is that it is all very much hands-on and containing many items no committee would approve.

He eventually got himself a Ferris wheel which he assembled on the roof (former heavy industrial building). The Saint Louis city hand-wringers didn't like it much, mostly I think because the City Museum had become a huge attraction that, unlike the Zoo and other such facilities, had no city control. Anyway, the city issued an order to tear it down. His lawyers looked at the order and found the city required a permit to tear it down, so the city issued a permit. Then his lawyers found that the permit was not issued properly because the demolition permit required (IIRC) a reference to the original building permit. So the city was forced to issue a building permit to complete the demolition permit. Ooops. Now that he had a building permit the city had no authority to force him to take it down.

The Ferris wheel is still there.

Sadly the guy who started it is dead, most likely murdered, but crudely staged to look to the incurious as an accident. Interesting people get interesting enemies.

 

I'm a practicing engineer in Ontario for 30 years and I take absolutely no offense at this guy's actions. I heard a radio interview with the man himself. (Full disclosure: I own a vehicle, which I drive on public roadways, frequently encountering red lights.)

Common sense: this guy was acting in the public interest; he was not offering engineering services to the public nor passing himself off as one.

Reality check: if Oregon Engineers are really so concerned about this problem they should go after the many thousands of computer code writers tacking the word 'engineer' onto whatever it is they do. Call up the architects association while you're at it. There are plenty of non-engineers stealing my bread every day practicing welding engineering. Charging this guy just reeks of bureaucratic vindictiveness. They should instead thank him for drawing attention to an ongoing deficiency.

That said, I'm not sure a free speech angle was the best approach for his defense. (The 'free speech' argument has been used to excuse almost anything, from superpacs to hate radio to unlimited access to porn for children.)

 

[IRstuff]

"he was not offering engineering services to the public nor passing himself off as one"
>> He did that at least twice in written communications with the board. Moreover, as the law is written, he was clearly doing both. That is the crux of the lawsuit.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.007[/URL]]2015 ORS 672.007¹
Acts constituting practice of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping

(1) A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:
(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c) Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 (Additional definitions) as the practice of engineering.

" they should go after the many thousands of computer code writers tacking the word 'engineer' onto whatever it is they do"
>> They are most likely covered by the industrial exemption

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.060[/URL]](6) The performance of engineering work by a person, or by full-time employees of the person, provided:
(a) The work is in connection with or incidental to the operations of the person; and
(b) The engineering work is not offered directly to the public.

According to below, if he did the work at home, then his fine was illegal.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/672.060#annotations[/URL]]Individual who sends letter containing professional engineering advice does not practice engineering on prop­erty owned or leased by individual. Topaz v. Board of Examiners for Engineering, 255 Or App 138, 297 P3d 498 (2013), Sup Ct review denied

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[joecampbell]

I think he should have been warned to not use the name, but his claims should not be dismissed.

the fact is bad design of lights costs many lives. putting cameras in place gives this city revenue but actually discourages fixing the problem, costing more lives. the city and its engineering department are basically now on notice for wrongful death suits, and even if they win the suit I personally hold them accountable, and you should too.

1. light timings are often too short, more cycles is more likely hood of crash but more money (more cycles more red light tickets, conflict of interest).
2. there becomes much less incentive to promote traffic circles or flashing red solutions, which remove cameras.
3. lagging reds do not get promoted even though they are shown to save lives (and decrease tickets...)
4. green light cycle times do not increase during snow events, which improves efficiency (and again reduces tickets)
5. cameras are too seldom used to improve traffic flow by adjusting cycle times based on actual conditions. (somewhat decrease in tickets)

the crux of the issue is the ticket on red +0.00 seconds and you have to have cleared the intersection, other countries use red +0.5 seconds(or other times) with no requirement to clear. to me usa law is crazy because it seems inefficient(though likely intended to be more safe).

to stop discussion on lights is wrong, maybe this guy should not lead the discussion but neither should the city (conflict of interest) or the media. the NHS or some body should set the rules and the cities follow them.

disclaimer i have never gotten a red light ticket or a speeding ticket.

here is all my comment karma

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/67jqju/man_fined_500_for_crime_of_writing_i_am_an/

 

[JNieman]

Well with that many reddit internet points, he can't be wrong.
/s

 

[BiPolarMoment]

As a sometimes motorcycle rider, red light cameras are problematic to safe riding practices (better to be "wrong" and alive). Disclosure: I'm an "engineer" but not an "Engineer".

 

[IRstuff]

"the crux of the issue is the ticket on red +0.00 seconds and you have to have cleared the intersection, other countries use red +0.5 seconds(or other times) with no requirement to clear. to me usa law is crazy because it seems inefficient(though likely intended to be more safe)"

Or, it's intended to generate revenue. Note that the "LAW" is actually a bunch of "laws," none of which specify details like "red +0.00 s." Prior to red-light cameras, it was solely at the discretion of the officer(s), resulting in total variability in ticketing. Red-light camera timing is primarily a revenue generation tool in most cities, particularly when it's offered for free by the camera suppliers, with a revenue-sharing arrangement. Setting the timing to "red +0.00s" simply ensures that the camera supplier gets their return on investment faster.

On the other side of the coin, yellow lights, today, tend to be ignored, as red-light enforcement is quite rare.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[beej67]

So the "correct" way to go about this would be for the dude to say, "I'm a physicist, and I caught you guys dorking with the stoplight timing to fleece the public with your stoplight cameras. Here's the math." And then Oregon probably would have said, "your math doesn't count because you're not a traffic engineer."

At that point, what's the guy to do? He caught the government red handed extorting the public. Nobody is even questioning that. But the state's response is simply to poison the well. If he claimed "physicist" instead of "engineer" on his business card, the state still has the option of poisoning the well, just in a different way.

In my mind, being critical of engineering, using sound science, absolutely should be free speech.



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[GregLocock]

But to play Devil's advocate, using the term engineer to describe yourself in a state where engineer is a protected term is asking for trouble. I don't think he's the silliest one in this sorry tale, but no one looks like a genius either.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[JAE]

I don't think he's the silliest one in this sorry tale, but no one looks like a genius either.

So would you say he's like: "an RPN calculator with no Enter key"?



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[Sparweb]

Or an RPN calculator with an Equals key?

STF