Fired for Trying to work on off Day. 2

[wagnes]

Hey all,

I have lurked in the this forum for many years and have found the boards to be very balanced with respect to ethical questions. Here is my current situation: I have been fired from civil/site firm i have worked at for 10 years for trying to obtain work on the side.

For the past 15 months, I had been cut to 4 days a week for work and pay. I never actually obtained a job, but had offered some proposals to potential clients which never panned out. I never used company time or company resources for these proposals. I didn't utilize company files or drawings.

The only mistake I made was to ask another employee to assist me, on our off day, with preparing a tree plan if a proposal came through. I offered it to him so that he could potentially earn some extra money as well. (He complained about his families' finances quite frequently and so I thought I was helping him.) He initially accepted, but days later said no, then I was fired several days later by my boss.

I am not upset by the firing and surely expected it if it ever came to light. But I feel ok, knowing I only did "work" on Fridays(not company time and by "work" I mean talking with potential clients.) In fact, would never had considered doing this had we not been reduced to 4 days for almost 15 months. The owner never came in so we could talk about my issues as he was pursuing his own real estate business. I was always honest with potential clients that I still worked for my old company, but was available only on non work days. And I never pursued new or old clients of my old company. In fact, I am kind of embarrassed at the lack of effort I put into my self-marketing. And when I did work for the old company, I gave it my all and never sacrificed quality and effort.

The funny thing is, you would have thought that I had been doing this for years and made a great living at it. But at the time of my firing, I had 0 jobs performed by my the side company.

I will say that I had heard stories of how my old company was formed and I think he may be projecting some of what he did in his own startup on my actions in his mind. Which would explain the grilling I received when I left. Anyway, I just wanted to put this out and get any insight you guys have.

Thanks in advance...

 

[SNORGY]

It is probably your non-disclosure beforehand of what you were preparing / planning to do that got you in trouble. It becomes a potential conflict of interests (possibly competing for the same or similar work as your employer) at that point.

If your employer *had been formally advised* that you were seeking to perform independent contract services on scheduled off days, and had no objections, then this probably could not have happened.

I am in a similar situation: I am a full-time salaried employee at Company A as well as the sole proprietor and Permit Holder of my own Company B. For everything I do under Company B, I must first seek permission and approval from Company A. I also have had to file notarized statements of disclosure with respect to my being a responsible professional member of both companies with my Professional Licensing Association in order to even be permitted to continue with licensure as an engineer under this arrangement.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[IRstuff]

In addition to it being a conflict of interest, which is indeed an issue, you potentially opened your employer up to the full brunt of any potential lawsuits stemming from your side activities .

So, there's no surprise that your company would immediately end their association with you. Had you told your employer, I'm sure they would have told you in no uncertain terms to not engage such activities without your own insurance and full indemnification of your employer. At which point, it would most likely have been economically unfeasible for you to do anything on the side.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[SNORGY]

Good point, IRstuff.

I hadn't even thought about that.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[ScottyUK]

...you potentially opened your employer up to the full brunt of any potential lawsuits stemming from your side activities

How so? It wasn't carried out in their name or using their facilities - where do you make the association with the full-time employer?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[KENAT]

"How so?" US legal system.

Another angle, maybe they were looking for reasons to let go of some people anyway and this was just an easy excuse to save on sevarance? Then again, if an at will employee that doesn't make much sense. Even my employer will sometimes lay off people it could have fired, and it's not like they're ethical giants. So, probably ignore my idea.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[MacGyverS2000]

The topic of my running a side business always comes up during the first interview with a new company (always by them, not me). I tell them I have successfully run a business for over 7 years with no effect on my 8-5 work, and they are welcome to verify that with my former employers. I give a vague outline of the type of work I do, and so far no one has questioned any further after that answer.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[vc66]

I'm usually of the camp that the employer can stick it where the sun don't shine; however, this is only if you're doing work completely outside the scope of your day job.

If you're doing work that is taking potential clients away from your daytime employer, then I'd assume they would be a little POed about it, and had you asked they would have said "no". However, if you were a bartender on your day off, they probably wouldn't care.

That being said, I also understand your position of having a pay cut. It's not fun.

I'm really torn on this issue. I feel for your situation, but you didn't go about it in the right way.

Either way, good luck finding another job.

V

 

[msquared48]

Or, since you are now unemployed with very little chance of employment, you could strike out on your own, although the timing with the economy will make marketing results horrible at best.

Good luck...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[TheTick]

It appers you were fired for both competing against your employer and for poaching your employer's employees in this effort. This isn't "moonlighting".

 

[msquared48]

Or that it APPEARED to you former employer that that was the case. That's all it takes you know. It does not have to be true to be acted upon.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[IRstuff]

If the OP's design failed, and I were the customer, who would I sue? The itinerant worker, or his day employer with the deeper pockets? Nevermind that the employer might get out of it, once it goes to court, but the employer will surely incur some legal costs just to get its name off the suit.

And who knows, it migh turn out that the employer unknowing contributed materials and resources to the effort, and hence, is responsible for being irresponsible and not keeping track of what its employees are doing.

This sort of legal wrangling is quite common, even in high-risk activities, which is one reason that OBs pay higher premiums for malpractice insurance.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[ScottyUK]

Thank God our judicial system isn't like yours.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[drawoh]

ScottyUK,

Today's phrase is joint and several liability. The only advantage we have in Canada or the UK is that lawyers cannot collect a portion of the settlement.

JHG

 

[WL123]

You think he would have given you a chance to explain and another chance after 10 years of service. He was probably looking for a reason to let anyone go because of the economy, he's already cut everyones pay and hours.

 

[GregLocock]

So the real title for this thread is

"My employers, who are already overstaffed, sacked me because I set up in competition with them, without informing them, and tried to get another employee to help me".

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it though does it?

I agree you haven't really done anything outrageously bad, yet, but boy have you painted a target on your back with your intentions.





Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[IRstuff]

In the US, that's all it takes; it's called "conspiracy to commit," since he did discuss this matter with someone else.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[RacingAZ]

Your mistake is not being upfront with your employer (although he would have likely said no if you've asked for permission early on). I bet your co-worker bounced your offer back to the boss to get his blessings and that's how the boss found out about your side gig. I'm on the boss' side due to potential liability risks.

I ran across and competed on 2 instances with moonlighters and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the time, they low ball their fees because it's not their primary source of income. The only thing that kept me from calling their bosses is my belief in karma.

wagnes, good luck on your job search. If you decide to be a freelancer in the time being, you'll find out what I'm talking about.

 

[jmw]

In tough times, letting a co worker in on your work was like giving him a get out of jail free card.
When downsizing is imminent a lot of guys would give their eye teeth to get something on their co-workers that means the co-worker gets the bullet and not them.
But, I note you haven't said right out that your co-worker shopped you and it may be your boss learned some other way?

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Yagonyonok]

"I ran across and competed on 2 instances with moonlighters and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Most of the time, they low ball their fees because it's not their primary source of income. The only thing that kept me from calling their bosses is my belief in karma."

RacingAZ, every now and then karma needs a little help to get the ball rolling.