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Fired for Trying to work on off Day. 2

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wagnes

Civil/Environmental
Mar 22, 2006
1
US
Hey all,

I have lurked in the this forum for many years and have found the boards to be very balanced with respect to ethical questions. Here is my current situation: I have been fired from civil/site firm i have worked at for 10 years for trying to obtain work on the side.

For the past 15 months, I had been cut to 4 days a week for work and pay. I never actually obtained a job, but had offered some proposals to potential clients which never panned out. I never used company time or company resources for these proposals. I didn't utilize company files or drawings.

The only mistake I made was to ask another employee to assist me, on our off day, with preparing a tree plan if a proposal came through. I offered it to him so that he could potentially earn some extra money as well. (He complained about his families' finances quite frequently and so I thought I was helping him.) He initially accepted, but days later said no, then I was fired several days later by my boss.

I am not upset by the firing and surely expected it if it ever came to light. But I feel ok, knowing I only did "work" on Fridays(not company time and by "work" I mean talking with potential clients.) In fact, would never had considered doing this had we not been reduced to 4 days for almost 15 months. The owner never came in so we could talk about my issues as he was pursuing his own real estate business. I was always honest with potential clients that I still worked for my old company, but was available only on non work days. And I never pursued new or old clients of my old company. In fact, I am kind of embarrassed at the lack of effort I put into my self-marketing. And when I did work for the old company, I gave it my all and never sacrificed quality and effort.

The funny thing is, you would have thought that I had been doing this for years and made a great living at it. But at the time of my firing, I had 0 jobs performed by my the side company.

I will say that I had heard stories of how my old company was formed and I think he may be projecting some of what he did in his own startup on my actions in his mind. Which would explain the grilling I received when I left. Anyway, I just wanted to put this out and get any insight you guys have.

Thanks in advance...

 
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Yagonyonok,

There's an old saying: "If you go looking for trouble, you will find it."

If you find that a person has violated the state ethical guidelines, then report them to the state board, not to their boss.
 
I never meant that they should go squealing to their bosses. Merely that if nobody ever does anything about such practices, besides waiting for karma to level the playing field it may never happen. If we aren’t willing to take the appropriate action to rectify a situation, then we shouldn’t complain about it.

In RacingAZ’s case it may have been as simple as letting the other guys know that they are devaluing their services by cutting their rates so low. In other cases where there are state code issues then the state board is the place.

I guess the karma thing is a trigger for me. I’ve seen to many people sit back and get screwed over while waiting for karma, rather than being proactive.
 
I'm on the side of karma here, while you can go and report this person to there boss or whom ever you please. What will happen next.
a) they get fired and become permanent moonlighter, that will compete against for other jobs.
b) they see fit to get even with you, by bad mouthing you to everyone in the state.
c) the boss already knows and decides to complain to your boss.
I could go on, at the end of the day a moonlighter or a single man operation is going to be able to charge less, service is the important part. If they drop their fee's and don't provide professional service, then you can take action, or as i would prefer inform the person whom engaged the engineer and was unhappy with the service of the possible avenues for complaint.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
 
A single qualified man using only the resources he is entitled to use for that purpose is fair competition. It is an essential part of the free enterprise system.

A moonlighter may well be using someone elses resources for free without their consent. That is not fair competition.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
I am a hippy at heart sometimes and always like to think people that are registered by there board with a code of ethics follow these and would use there own resources in this situation. I also like to think there is more good than bad in the world, It helps me sleep at night.

Ron's the bigcheese, pats the Publican. I take it pat that you punked Ron (these are Ron's words)?

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it
 
I'm talking about bad karma happening to me for snitching on them. Whatever bad karma they get, I don't really care and I'm not going to waste my time trying to gather evidence for the State board. You actually need solid evidence to submit to the board to file a complaint. Without any evidence and just my word would look like sour graping.

Also, isn't talking to the other guys about their rates considered collusion?

I actually filed a complaint on another PE running a plan stamping operations. The evidence fell into my lap as it was in the e-mail sent to me and forwarded it to the board. This one was easy as I didn't have to do any digging around.
 
Pat-

I assume that you only mean it's not fair competition IF he's using resources other than his own. Correct? Because I can't understand why it's not fair competition just because one guy has a day job, and one guy doesn't.

V
 
Defining "fair" is a difficult thing to do under any circumstance.

However, if one had a day job, which allowed him to lowball with impunity, is that considered "fair" or "just business?"


TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
If he uses the computer, software or reference books belonging to his day job company, that is unethical. If he uses his own - good business.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services
 
Professional Associations (such as the several in which I am a member) occasionally publish guidelines on the value of professional services. For the good of the dignity of the engineering profession, I believe we should each do our part to not throw such guidelines out the window when we set our rates. To do otherwise would suggest that you really don't care about your profession; one might construe that to mean you are unprofessional.

Apart from that, if, on your own, you can do something faster and cheaper than your new-found competition and fully satisfy the law and the Client, that's just fair and good business.

Regards,

SNORGY.
 
One more opinion:

Your employer doesn't own you. If your work doesn't compete with them, you don't use your employer's resource, and you haven't promised them differently, you should be free to do as you wish when you're not being paid by them.

I'd say they don't own your friend either. If your suggestion to him didn't include an inducement to work on company time or compete with your employer, I still see no problem.


 
In RacingAZ's case it may have been as simple as letting the other guys know that they are devaluing their services by cutting their rates so low.
That, my good fellow, is what they call "price fixing." There's at least one bookfull of regulations in the US to criminalize such discussions.
 
vc66

I just reread my post. I think it says exactly what I mean.

He does not need to actually own the resources he uses, but he must have the permission of the owner to use them for that purpose or they may be rented or they may be legitimate free copies or whatever.

I thought
using only the resources he is entitled to use for that purpose

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
Pat-

Must learn to read good.

Sorry about that. Your post was quite clear the second time it rolled around my brain.

V
 
No problem.

I was a bit concerned that maybe Auslish and USlish had some different spin I missed.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
No problema en California...

Your original posting was quite clear.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
 
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