I've noticed a growing number of recruiters from NZ and Oz targeting the UK in the past year. At least the governments from down under are encouraging their companies to recruit talented people from the Northern hemisphere by giving them preferred status in the immigration process. Kinda the inverse of the UK governemt attitude where the UK acts as the landfill where Europe disposes of its unwanted and undesirables, while making it tough for anyone of any worth to the country enter.
Scotty, I don't think the BNP could have put it any better.
In my company many of the new graduates are from outside of the UK, and I believe many recruits for the NHS (for doctors/dentists etc.) are from outside of the UK. Hardly the unwanted and undesireables from other countries. With the exception of Mexico, the UK actually has the largest number of emigrants to other countries, who no doubt complain about the brits arriving on their shores.
With the global economy there will no doubt be more people migrating to where ever employment opportunities occur, which, as has been shown in the UK, actually helps the economy of that country. Sadly the xenophobics of the world will try to stop that.
corus: immigration is great, as long as everybody is informed and up-front about the process, and the selection process is based on economic reality rather than fantasy!
In Canada, because there is no profession- or region- specific quota system matching labour force supply and immigration demand, about fifteen thousand new engineers arrive every year- that's fifty percent more than the number of engineers we graduate each year from all of our universities combined. At the same time, we deport WORKING skilled tradesmen such as bricklayers etc. who actually are in short supply! Of the 15,000 engineers who arrive yearly, over half of them settle in one city (Toronto) because they have total freedom in regard to where to settle. That's not good for Toronto's economy, nor is it good news for the poor b@stards when they arrive here and find out that there's no work suiting their skills and experience.
The trouble is: nobody will deal with this situation because they're afraid of being labeled a xenophobe! So immigrant engineers go on suffering, losing their hard capital and their profession. It's more than sad- it disgusts me.
are you advocating a system of forced labour ? ie, if you're an immigrant with engineering background you can get a visa if you work in NWT or other similarly unattractive places ... not that the NWT is ugly, it just that i (and many like me) choose not to live there.
i would hope that the support groups for immigrants would be helping them be bringing these opportunities to their attention, and the free market determines the going rate. i'd imagine that the local market wuold squawk considerably if immigrants were sent there, depressing the going rate, and generally pi$$ing off everyone.
btw, i am an immigrant engineer, albeit not a visible minority and from a generally affulent country. i know the stresses and troubles that people go through moving countries, but add to that the stresses of learning language, a whole new social order, a whole new way of life, with a family, without much money (money may not buy happiness, but it sure eases the situation, and the lack of it sure is a problem) ... i can only begin to imagine what they go through; and if this is better than staying somewhere else, boy that must be a nasty place ! and as an immigrant engineer i'd be almightily pi$$ed if the government told me where to work.
I don't think that moltenmetal is advocating making anyone move to NWT or other areas that have "needs" - but it wouldn't be to bad of an idea to say, "Look, you want to come HERE (to canada), and we need help THERE (area of need). Why don't you come HERE and work for X years THERE, and then you can be a citizen.
...that said, if I understand what moltenmetal is saying; he is advocating limiting the number of engineers that immigrate, while allowing more trademen, where there is need.
At the same time, we deport WORKING skilled tradesmen such as bricklayers etc. who actually are in short supply!
Wes C.
------------------------------ No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
well, i think this is the job of the support groups, of which the government is one group; i find it a little hard to believe that they (the immigrants and their support) don't know where the opportunities are (are we "hooked up" with a special information network ?).
it's also a different matter that some immigrants are well qualified but the local licensing "thugs" don't recognise their credentials/abilities, 'cause they didn't do their university study in canada (i was a victim of this, but fought back).
it's a different question, too, of employers wanting/advertsing for engineers, so uncertificated "engineers" don't apply, or don't get through the first sieve of applications ... and this, i think, is one of moltenmetal's points. Here maybe the government could help by subsidising immigrants 'cause they probably won't be fully effective, and providing other support (ESL classes), to encourage companies to take on uncertificated "engineers" (who'd be working under the supervision of an engineer) to allow them to establish themselves in their new country, to get the professional experience to qualify for P.Eng status.
as for deporting skilled trades, i don't think they're getting picked on; i expect that they are working illegally and should be deported; tho' possibly they could set up an amensity program.
. The immigration and bachelor's grad rates for engineers in Canada from 1990 through 2003 are given there and the trend is difficult to miss.
When immigrant engineers can't find work in Canada, they immediately conclude that it's because their "credentials aren't being recognized" or because they're unable to get a license.
The reality is, in Canada, the only person you have to convince of your engineering "credentials" is your employer. Do this, and you will have work. Fail to do this, and you drive a taxi, work in a factory, or learn a trade etc.
Only ~25% of Canadian graduate engineers bother to get a license. In Canada, an engineering "license" is neither a prerequisite to find a job as an employee engineer, nor is it any guarantee of a job once you have one. It's barely a license at all- there are so many loopholes in the licensure system that it has become a voluntary club of sorts for most of us.
What's actually happening is that immigrant engineers are congregating in a few cities where they swamp the ability of the local marketplace to provide them with suitable work. They compete for a limited number of jobs in these areas and while some thousands of them are successful in finding work yearly, many thousands more are unsuccessful.
Are the employers systematically excluding these folks because they're all racists or xenophobes? Hardly! Most companies don't make decisions on the hiring and retention of engineers merely on the basis of salary. I won't take on a poor candidate merely because he comes with a salary subsidy or is willing to work for 2/3 of what I can get an excellent candidate to work for. And no amount of government subsidy or mentorship programs will integrate immigrants into non-existent jobs! Most engineers in Canada are employed in situations where there are fewer than 10 engineers on staff, which limits the ability of such firms to integrate the vast numbers of foreign-trained candidates that are looking for work at the moment.
We could hand out licenses to everyone who claims they're an engineer, but it wouldn't find jobs for the throngs who settle in the greater Toronto area- and it would put the public at risk. These self-declared engineers represent a vast diversity in skills, education, experience, language proficiency etc., from the very best engineers going to some people who are merely pretending and don't have an accredited degree. But what they share is one thing: a lack of experience in the local marketplace, which makes them a greater hire risk regardless. If you're looking for someone with 5 years of experience, someone who has five years experience for your local competitor is generally more qualified than someone with 20+ years of out-of-country experience. That's true, regardless how unfortunate it may sound.
Clearly we can't force people to settle where the work is. People coming to Canada via legal immigration have every right to settle where they choose. Prior generations of immigrants fought for that right. Immigrants also have the "right" to work as a taxi driver or in a factory until they find work suitable to their experience and education. Or to move to the frontiers in search of better opportunities. Or to give up their professional aspirations entirely for the sake of their children's future etc. Or to return to their country of origin. Those are all valid, individual choices. What we DO owe these folks is the simple truth, BEFORE they choose to come: there is NO dire shortage of engineers in Canada, most especially not in the major urban centres, and definitely not in the GTA. And if you come to Canada as an engineer, you may find an engineering job within two weeks or you may not after searching for five years- it depends on where you settle, your own ability to integrate into the local business environment, and the vagueries of the local supply/demand situation.
Canada, unfortunately for everyone involved, has ceased even to try to match labour force demand with the supply of skills via immigration. It's like some kind of vast, perverse eugenics experiment: the chief, deciding criterion for immigration is level of education- you get more points for this than for having a pre-arranged job. So while we go short of skilled tradespeople to the point that employers actively recruit illegal immigrants to fill their waiting positions, we immigrate thousands more engineers than the workforce could hope to use.
Interesting comment concerning Aerospace. I remember reading an article a few months back concerning Boeing in Dallas, TX. The board meeting focused on the dirth of engineers they expect to see in the next 5 years as the current old guard is going to be retiring in larger droves. The concern the speaker mentioned pertained not only to finding engineers (aerospace, manufacturing, etc.), but find ones with exceptional math and analytical skills.
When my parents were down in Dallas last year, they heard the same mentioned by execs in various settings. Since it sounds like there are some insiders on the board, what's your take on the above statement?
They aren't making any new oil, nickel, copper, real estate etc. These things will increase in price as their scarecity increases and we have to work harder to get what we need. People who make these things will profit. Now who makes real estate, you may ask? People who re-habilitate "brownfield" contaminated former industrial sites in major North American cities are one example.
China and India are developing. That means good news for the people of these countries in general terms, and for those who supply these people with what they need: raw materials.
Manufacturing is heading to areas of lower and lower labour cost, and so far, nobody in the developed world seems to care enough about this to do something about it. Expect more of the same, including the auto industry heading to China in a big way. But what then? Is Africa the next China? I doubt it, but who knows?!
One thing that won't be going to China in particular, though, is any industry requiring the use of proprietary technology or the development of intellectual property. IP theft in China is culturally accepted and rampant, and that's not going to change in less than a generation. Businesses once victim of this are twice shy. And indigenous IP development in China won't flourish until they solve this problem either- not for any shortage of well-educated, motivated people I might add.
Immigration/emigration from the developing world to the developed world will accelerate as the post-WWII boom generations age. Some nations will handle this well, others will fail and have social strife. The same with international trade: vested interests will ensure that trade will accelerate, even when the benefits of such trade are enormously one-sided.
Communications are getting easier and cheaper. Businesses which benefit from this trend will flourish, and those who have been protected from overseas competition by this fact alone will be sunk. Some quicker than others.
Buzzwords like nanotechnology will continue to be more important in media reports than in employment terms.
And people will continue to guess, incorrectly, what the future may hold!
Molt, Whilst you have some good valid points here you also have some garbage generalisations too.
"If you're looking for someone with 5 years of experience, someone who has five years experience for your local competitor is generally more qualified than someone with 20+ years of out-of-country experience."
Occasionally immigrants are brought here by some of Canada's largest employers because the local engineers dont have the experience and its quicker to bring in the skills and new ideas rather than going through the training process.
I agree immigrants arriving before they have a position are playing a very risky game.
In both cases licensing is an issue. Not such a big deal for those arriving already employed as licensing can generally be ignored. Beyond the facade of maintaining standards, its only a time wasting, money making scam anyways.
Being British and visiting the UK on occassion, I can see what ScottyUK is trying to say. Other countries seem to have targeted immigration programs, or points systems based on skills. The UK appears to attract those who wish to only live on state benefits (generalisation).
Its far too easy these days to play the racism card, instead of putting together a factual counter argument.
I'm sorry - ashamed maybe - that I sound like a BNP spokesman.
My problem is not with immigrants entering the UK per se, but rather with immigrants with no skills or training, and who all too easily vanish into the black economy ('black' in this instance meaning the criminal economy, just so we're clear) which is a drain upon the state. Remember that the State is itself funded directly and indirectly by the labours of the average Joe through the various taxes and duties he and his employer pays as he goes about his respectable law-abiding life. As one of those average Joes I'm entitled to feel aggrieved toward those who feel the need to leech off the State that I help finance. If immigrants are able to fill positions of worth - be they doctors, nurses, engineers, bus drivers, whatever - and they want to be part of our nation instead of part of the criminal cancer slowly destroying it then I welcome them warmly. If that is what the BNP stand for - and I don't think it is - then where do I sign up?
• 600,000 people from Eastern Europe have successfully applied for the right to work in the United Kingdom over the past two years. This means that they now account for 2 per cent of the country's 30 million strong workforce
• 62 per cent of the new workers have come from Poland
• £2.54bn is contributed to the economy annually by eastern European immigrants in the UK
• 0.5-1 per cent of economic growth in the United Kingdom in 2005 and 2006 has been contributed by migrants
• 70,000 migrant workers help with harvesting farms, according to the National Farmers Union
• 10 per cent of employees on Britain's building sites are from overseas - making a total labor force of up to 100,000 workers
• 80 per cent of new migrants are working people between the ages of 18 and 35. This offsets the tendency for the country's population to age, addressing the difficulties in providing for an ageing population. There is evidence that National Insurance contributions would have to be higher under lower migration scenarios
• 250,000 jobs a year are created by the UK economy. The economy continues to grow only because there is the population to carry such continued growth
• 31 per cent of doctors working in hospitals and general practices throughout the UK are migrants
• 13 per cent of nurses who are working in the UK were born abroad
• 12.5 cent of teaching staff working in schools across the UK are non-British
• 70 per cent of catering jobs in London are filled by migrant workers
• 13 per cent higher average wages earned by migrant workers (compared to workers who are not migrants) suggests that migrant workers are more highly skilled and more productive"
My guess for the future is a headline on the Daily Express front page of "Bulgarian ate my hamster"
Not wishing to fan the flames but I'll just go get some gasoline.
" 600,000 people from Eastern Europe have successfully applied for the right to work in the United Kingdom over the past two years. This means that they now account for 2 per cent of the country's 30 million strong workforce"
and
" 0.5-1 per cent of economic growth in the United Kingdom in 2005 and 2006 has been contributed by migrants"
So, from he first quote, migrants form at least 2 % of the workforce, since there are also migrants from non Eastern European countries.
And from the second quote, they produce at best half (1% divided by 2%), and at worst much less than that ().5% divided by more than 2%), of the economic growth per capita that everybody else has contributed.
Well, have I distorted the statistics?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
So just to really fan the flames and off topic from the original post....
Why is it we have people immigrating to supposedly fill the labor shortage (both UK & US) when there are already significant quantities of people in the countries who aren't working despite basically being able to and instead live at the states expense.
I'm not talking about the genuinely disabled or retired but the people who find ways of working the system to their advantage.
For UK members think of the TV series 'Bread'.
My wife is in social work in the US and has generational clients who have never done a significant amount of work in their lives but live off a combination of the state &/or the occasional off the books/under the table often illegal activities.
Now I'm not saying that the majority of people on welfare & other benefits are like this but it would appear that there are a lot that are.
Every now and then governments take some action on this, with varying success but the problem still seems to exist.
There’s no easy fix to this that I can see but just wanted to throw it in.
On topic:
I guess medical device industry will continue to grow & expand.
When will the oil and gas industry start fading away- if ever?
Will it grow to a crescendo and then fade away just before new technologies start hitting the streets?
I'm considering getting into oil and gas and just wondered how long everyone thinks it can last. Aside from it lasting, is there likely to be any normal cyclical downturns coming up in the near future?
I tried to get this train back on its original track, but others have completely de-railed it- so I feel OK now in replying off-topic!
FOETS: We agree that if you're looking for someone with 20 years of experience, someone with 5 years of experience won't be adequate- regardless where they gained it. But that's not my argument. Targeted immigration to fill very specialized positions of this sort isn't the issue we're discussing. There are whole groups of "tramp" engineering specialists who globe-trot from project to project irrespective of their original nationality- they're not who we're discussing here. What's happening in Canada is speculative immigration of some fifteen thousand engineers yearly- more by half than we graduate every year- a tiny minority of whom have pre-arranged employment.
I've rarely met an engineer with 20 years of experience whose role was solely technical. Engineers at this level are expected to do all sorts of client and vendor contact and business-side work, requiring excellent communication skills, in-depth knowledge of local rules, standards, practices and business norms, and innumerable other context-sensitive "soft skills" to do their work effectively. A person with zero experience in the local marketplace may be suitable to step into such a job immediately and to be effective rapidly, but only if their experience was obtained in a very similar market. Someone who gained their 20 years of experience in the UK, US, Australia, South Africa etc. might fit this bill, whereas someone who gained their experience in India, China, Romania etc. probably would not be. The latter group cannot expect to step into such positions without first demonstrating their worth in (and gaining mentored experience in) the local marketplace.
What often gets missed in this discussion is that the developing world is investing significant amounts of their precious resources in producing engineers and other professionals, and then losing them to the first world via immigration. I don't have a problem with that in principle (people do have a right to mobility). I DO have a problem with permitting Canada to "steal" ~15,000 engineers yearly, principally from the developing world, often with false promises of a great future in a land where their skills are "desperately needed"- and then put a significant fraction of them to work as disgruntled taxi drivers and factory workers merely because stupid bureaucrats and politicians won't get real about supply and demand!
When I was a student, I new that mobility of engineers is or should be easy. Considering that engineers do technical work merely, than numbers are numbers all over the world. By numbers you can see a good engineer.
Nowadays ,we have the issues of cultural fit, communication, language skills all other soft skills that HR people can play with. As far as I am concern that's B.S. It is easy to tell someone off because he has no communication skills. Isn't it?
If someone tells me that that the job requires/ needs mainly the soft skills than they do not need an engineer, they need a liberal arts graduate. plain and simple.
And finally, I actually believe that eastern europeans from Romania are better professional engineers than the ones trained in UK overall. In UK everybody can call himself an engineer regarless of education etc. How sad.
I personally would not see a UK applicant a first candidate. I worked with some and usually that are not as good as they claim to be. Obviousy the soft skills they have are better.
![[blush]](/data/assets/smilies/blush.gif "[blush] [blush]")
