Generation Conflict - Changing The Wheel 9

[TheNextGen]

How can I convince the old guard engineers that it is time to update their means and methods?

I'm not trying to "reinvent the wheel." But something major needs to be done. To borrow from the MBA'ers, there needs to be "disruptive" change.

I'm in a stodgy old industry that's been churning out reliable widgets for more than a century. I'm in a specialty which codified (industry wide) its philosophy half a century ago. My company's specifications to which I'm designing are at least 30 years old. The company's leaders of my speciality have been doing this work since the days of paper, pencil, and slide rule along with some reference tables were all that was available.

I'm almost 30. I grew up with computers. (See where this is going?) I'm a few years into my career. My designs are out in the field operating successfully. I have "field" experience with the manufacture and installation of the widgets I design (though not their operation).

Here's the conflict:
I have something to contribute. The old guard pushes back, saying "but that's not the way we have done it."

I feel that I've paid my dues. I've done the work the old way. I've read the old masters of my speciality (more than many of the old guard). I'm up to speed on the modern research in my field (very few of the old guard are).

I have proved in hard data that my proposals produce an objectively better widget. "But that's not the way we have always done it."

... For less engineering hours, material cost, and installation cost. "But that's not the way we have always done it."

... Without compromising safety or pushing the envelop of what the code allows. "But that's not the way we have always done it."



How do you deal with engineers who refuse to reason?


Should I just grin, bear it and wait for the retirement receptions?

The Next Gen

 

[KENAT]

Well, for starters, don't borrow terms from MBA'ers - that's a sure fire way to get on the wrong side of crusty old (or youngish) engineers.

If you can make the other party think it was at least partly their idea then you may have more luck, though may not get as much credit.

Or, if you're half as awesome as you seem to think, quit and start your own company building widgets "For less engineering hours, material cost, and installation cost. Without compromising safety or pushing the envelop of what the code allows"

Thinking outside the box can be really good. However, surprisingly often, the box is the shape and size it is for good reason.

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[TheNextGen]

To clarify... "a few years into my career" does not mean "2 years".

I have met the requirements for PE licensure, but haven't gotten around to taking the test yet. I'm scheduled for the spring.

That could change your answer, but I do not anticipate it changing the situation at the office.

 

[MikeHalloran]

So, you should by now know the barriers to entry for the widget business.

If you can build a better one for less, why not go do it?




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ctopher]

I think a good way to see it is to learn from the 'old school' engineers. You never know what you might learn.
When they retire, or leave, you can take their knowledge and transform it to work with today's engineering culture.
I think it's called 'progress'.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[RolMec]

Maybe you can find a side path, away from the main grazing ground, where your newly designed widgets just 105% meet customers needs. New business = fair chance for new methods.
i think time constraints / cost constraints coould be your way. Old ways ARE competed NOW, everywhere. That also should give some push (someday + hopefully not too late!)
Best wishes for a chance!

R.

 

[TheNextGen]

I am not talking about cutting edge widget science. The means, methods, and results are being used by the industry at large and the competition in particular.

My peers at other companies joke about backwardness of our methods and the conservativism of our designs.

I have been and continue to be open to logical arguments for the old system. The _ONLY_ argument I ever get is "well, this is the way it has always been done." No one has defended it on the grounds that it is safer, quicker, easier, more efficient, less costly, etc etc etc. Those are arguments I can understand and consider.

I cannot counter the "it has always been done this way" argument except with some snide remark about the earth was thought to be flat when they started working. No I don't say that, but I sometimes think it.

Anyway, I need to go sharpen my chissel and gather some tablets from the office quarry so I can get some work done today.

 

[MintJulep]

So when you say the old guard pushes back, do you mean industry wide, or just at the company you work for.

If one company isn't interested in change it doesn't mean that all companies making widgets aren't interested.

Or, as others have suggested, start building better widgets on your own.

 

[TheTick]

Go elsewhere. Be one more example of how they can't attract and retain talent.

 

[MALK]

Tend to agree with TheTick or just get really persistent, if you have got something, someone will eventually listen.

 

[TenPenny]

"My peers at other companies joke about backwardness of our methods and the conservativism of our designs."

The way I see it, you have two options. One is to go higher up in your company, discuss your ideas, and how they will benefit the bottom line. They'll either agree, or not. It's their call.

The other is to leave, and go to one of those other companies.

 

[KENAT]

TheNextGen, I'm not immune to your sense of frustration. The way we do some things here is so back a$$wards it drives me mad at times. I swear at times operations procedures enshrined in our ERP software/system slow down development schedules and increase cost so much we should be bankrupt.

However, I really think part of the problem may be your attitude and approach. Just in this time you've managed to make some of us think you're probably an arrogant young upstart. I'm sorry, but no, just because you're eligible to sit for the much vaunted PE doesn't do anything for me.

Before blaming other folks always take a good long look at what part of it may be your fault or how you could act differently to get a better result - I have to remind myself of this often. If you're thinking snide comments, even without saying them, at least some people will probably pick up on this and it wont help your case.

Or, if things really are as bad as you say, then you may be in a losing situations and should look for other opportunities.

Is your current employer losing business, or growing more slowly than competitors etc? Some companies business model is the the way you detail, while it almost certainly limits growth it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to go out of business.

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[ColonelSanders83]

Theres another point you need to consider.

You have stated that the opinion is the your company makes dated and overly conservative widgets.

Your company is still in bussiness, how can this be?

Maybe the costumer wants the widget you make because he can by it, install it, and forget about,.... forever.

Our company buys pumps made in that fasion, thier competitors keep prodding that their pumps are a modern design with better carachterisitcs. Problem is the old 1950's design is proven and basicly bomb proof, you really have to try to screw em up. They were designed in the day of paper and pencil engineering when if in doubt throw steel at it.

There is a time and a place for improvement, but if our current pump vendor changes thier design, I won't but thier pumps anymore.

Just my two cents worth

A question properly stated is a problem half solved.

Always remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it!

http://www.ap-dynamics.ab.ca/

 

[KENAT]

Thanks ColonelSanders83, yours is the point I was making about some companies having a business model much like the OP is complaining about.

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[BJC]

TheNexGen

You'r one of them. If you had any cajones you be gone and not writing to a form complaining. Them that can do,does, them that can't whine.
Welcome aboard.

 

[ctopher]

"well, this is the way it has always been done."

I have personally witnessed two engineers at two separate companies get fired on the spot for this comment.
According to management it means they are incompetent.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[philmech]

The title of your thread refers to "Generation Conflict . ." I think this has less to do with generations and more to do with personalities. I know 30 year old engineers who would rather resurect and reuse someone elses old design than come up with something on their own. They don't care why something was designed as it was; they just want something to put down on paper. The culture of the company you work for allows these engineers to remain comfortable with their past successes. As ctopher's response indicates, there are other companies where they would not survive. You need to find a company with the culture to match your personality.

 

[jmw]

Some businesses are relatively stable no matter how badly they do things while others are very sensitive to market factors.
The reason it is so difficult to change seemingly stable companies is the appearance of success. (They always end up in the trash in the end but the signs are often missed till too late).
In such companies the "man and boy" mind set is a feature of everything("I've been here, man and boy, for nigh on 40 years and we've always done it that way.").

I've been in companies where the management had to accept that some changes couldn't be done until "Old Joe" retired.... sad, but there it is.

The advice given above is sensible and frequently taken, start your own company.
In my first company they made Rotameters. Tapered glass shrunk onto mandrills and individually calibrated. Some one wanted to produce moulded plastic pre-calibrated tubes with spherical ball floats instead of machined tapered floats - lower accuracy but much lower cost and ex-stock and what the customer wanted.
The elitists jumped all over the guy and he left and set up his own company. His company is still going, the original company has been merged and taken over several times and at each rationalisation something more was lost. Their products are not now manufactured by them and they were the world market leader.

There are lost of similar examples in the world.

So, is there another way?

Well, I have no idea.
I can suggest you might like to involve them in the solution instead of trying to do it all yourself and maybe you could break it down into lots of small steps and sell each step at a time.

You may even have to compromise on some things to get other things done (and come back to these later on).

You have to recognise that the old guard don't like to be told where they are going wrong. They don't like new young people coming and telling them where everything is wrong.
It may therefore be a question of approach rather than content.

For example, again at my first company, over the fence was one of these splintered off companies making the same thing but better. One day management decided to scrap one of the products on the grounds that "there is no market for it". Of course, they arrived at this decision from looking at the sales figures which were poor and declining. They failed to ask why, if that were so, the company over the fence was selling them like hotcakes.
In your case they may see what appears a steady business but they may not have looked at the market and what is happening out there.

To sell your idea you may have to do some market research and generate a case that says where the market is going and why.

Just saying "The way you guys make these things sucks" isn't going to cut it.
If you give them the choice of doing it the old way (their way) and the new way (your way) you will get no where.

What you need to do is break it down into small steps.
Then you find a reason for changing things and go along and say " Can I ask your advice? I have this problem, because the competition are getting ahead of us I've been tasked to look at the way we do things to see if there isn't some way we change the way we do things, you know, take advantage of modern design and machining, materials and so on, that will put us back on top. Now I've been looking at this part here and I must say I am hard pressed to better the way we do it but I've found two approaches which might save us some costs and make it easier to hit the quality targets but I can't be sure which is the best way to do it."

Note, you have assumed a need to change in your discussion and explained why change is needed and you are asking professional advise and you have given a choice between two different ways to change things. Note you have not said the options are to carry on as before or do it your way but to get the old boys to help you choose which new way to do it.
Do this often enough and with small steps and they will all feel involved. They may all also feel they have some ownership of the new design.

If you are half as clever as you hope you are you should be able to get them to choose as the best way the way you already chose.
But, the trick is, listen to them because they may well have been doing some serious thinking about this themselves.
When you sell it to management, don't take all the credit to yourself. Be generous.

It might work.

You can be sure that if you approach it in the right way every one of them, trying to help the young guy out, will come up with some criticism of the way things are done now and all you do is collect them together and then make your solution a response to their criticism and their input.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[casseopeia]

Ask the most accessible person who can make a decision to change, or add significant input, what YOU can do to convince them that this is the way to go. Then do your homework. If what you propose requires retooling the plant and retraining their workforce, and they do not have the capital to do it, contact some banks and find out what it would take to get a business loan. Then evaluate the economic advantages of increased sales by changing your widget vs the cost of the retooling/retraining. Put it into a spreadsheet and show management what kind of timeframe they can expect to recoup their expenses.

And do it on your own time.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[jmw]

Good points Cass.
I have assumed this is a management initiative.
If it isn't you first need to show management there is a problem/opportunity and suggest you have some ideas on how to fix it (don't put the whole solution up front yet) and that you'd like to consult with the other engineers.
Then when you come back you have a solution management thinks is a collaborative effort, and then the "old Guard" will think this is a management initiative but they will have been involved in the solution.... if you talk to them and ask for support and advice.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com