GeoTechnical with 2 bore holes and Geohazard reports for $14,880 1

[AndrewSherman]

I got my preapplication conference from the county who said I need to submit for a Geological Hazard and a Geohazard Area engineering applications.
This one company quoted me $14,880 for the 2 reports described below. I am trying to put a house on a property next to a river in Washington State.
Since I haven't built a house before I got no idea of what to expect for a GeoTechnical ($11,300) or GeoHazard ($3,580) report.
What features should I be expecting to receive in a geotechnical investigation?

Here is what they said after the site visit:

Thank you for meeting me at the site last week. I worked with our Principal Engineer/Department Manager to determine the scope of work and cost for the geologic hazard assessment, as well as for the future geotechnical investigation. I wanted to get a scope of work and cost information for the hazard assessment and geotechnical investigation over for your review.

Our principal engineer reviewed the geologic hazards present at the site, and recommends the geotechnical investigation include quantitative modeling of seismically-induced liquefaction settlement and the potential for movement due to lateral spread. Lateral spread can occur on sites underlain by liquefiable soils that are located on or immediately adjacent to a free face, such as a river bank. During lateral spread, the materials overlying the liquefied soils are subject to lateral movement toward the free face, which can result in significant damage to structures. Deep drilled borings are necessary to complete these analyses.

The following sections outline our proposed scope of work for the two reports:

The geologic hazard assessment will include:

• Review available literature for geologic hazards in the vicinity of the site. Specific hazards to be qualitatively addressed by this study include:
o Erosion potential
o Landslide potential / Slope stability
o Seismic potential and seismic hazards (liquefaction, lateral spread, seismic slope instability)
o Flood potential
o Volcanic hazards potential
• Review readily available historical aerial photographs of the site.
• Review available topographic, geologic, and geologic hazard maps for the area.
• Perform a surface reconnaissance of the site.
• Log the existing bank of the Lewis River along the area of the proposed area of development.
• Provide qualitative conclusions regarding the potential impacts of geologic hazards on the proposed development, and vice versa.
• Provide a written report summarizing the results of our study in general accordance with the Clark County Code Chapter 40.430.030(C)(5) and the 2006 Washington State Geologist Licensing Board Guidelines for Preparing Engineering Geology Reports in Washington.

Hazard Assessment Fixed Fee:
For the scope of services described above, our services will be provided for a fixed fee of $3,580.
Geotechnical Investigation

Our geotechnical investigation will include the following:

• Visit the site and mark (stake) intended test pit locations for utility locating purposes. This would be completed during the geologic hazard assessment site visit.
• Contact the Washington Utilities Notification Center (“one-call”) to mark the locations of any public utilities within a 30-foot radius of our intended borings.
• Return to the site and explore subsurface conditions in the area of the proposed residence by observing the advancement of 2 drilled borings in the area of the proposed residence.
• The borings will be advanced using a drill rig provided and operated by our licensed drilling subcontractor.
• The borings will be advanced to depths of 25 to 80 feet below ground surface (bgs) or practical refusal, whichever occurs first.
• Sampling and testing within the borings will include:
• Standard Penetration Tests (SPTs) will be conducted using a split-spoon sampler in general accordance with American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) D1586. SPTs will be conducted (and samples obtained) at 2½-foot intervals for the upper 15 feet in the borings, and on 5-foot intervals thereafter to the termination depths of the borings.
• In conjunction with SPTs, where fine-grained soils are encountered, 3-inch diameter (ID) thin-wall steel Shelby tube samples will be obtained to collect undisturbed soil samples for evaluation of unit weight and other properties.
• We will measure depths to groundwater in the borings, if encountered. The water level(s) will be checked in the borings just prior to backfilling.
• Drill spoils will be left on the site.
• The borings will be backfilled with granular bentonite prior to departure from the site.

• Bring the soil samples back to our laboratory to refine field classifications and conduct laboratory testing to determine in-situ properties.
• Laboratory testing is anticipated to include moisture content tests, particle-size distribution (sieve) tests, and plasticity index test(s).
• Provide quantitative analyses of the potential for seismically-induced liquefaction settlement and seismically-induced lateral spread for the location of the proposed residence.
• Summarize the results of the field investigation, laboratory testing, and analyses in a geotechnical report. The report will include:
• The site plan showing the exploration locations
• Logs of the explorations, including depths of existing fill (if encountered), soil layer(s), groundwater depth(s), and results of laboratory testing performed on selected samples.
• A technical narrative of the completed investigation and findings
• Results of the liquefaction and lateral spread analysis, including estimated settlements.
• Geotechnical recommendations for site preparation, temporary excavations, wet weather construction, earthwork, permanent cut and fill slopes, and design and construction of shallow foundations (or deep foundations if appropriate based on results of the analyses), floor slabs, and driveway
• The report will be stamped by a professional geotechnical engineer (PE) licensed in Washington


Geotechnical Investigation Fixed Fee:
For the scope of services described above, our services will be provided for a fixed fee of $11,300. In order to initiate our work, we require an up-front retainer fee of one-half of this amount. The remainder of the fixed fee is required prior to issuing our final report.

 

[JStephen]

I'm assuming you are the (potential) home owner here?
At some point, somebody has to come up with a design for the foundation and for the house, and that person is the one who will actually use the soils report. If you can get them involved now, they can quite likely tell you if that scope is typical or overkill or what, considering the project, location, etc, and also can advise if there is any additional information they will need.
Be aware that one reason for doing these reports is to confirm that the site is suitable to build on, and while it's uncommon, the answer could come back as "no".
Or in some cases, it could turn out that deep foundations (extra costs) are required to build there.
In some cases, building codes allow structures to be built without a soils report, but "next to a river" may be an issue that precludes that.
If there are other existing houses nearby, finding out what was required or done for them could be informative prior to doing the report.
The soils reports I see generally have a scope similar to that described, but are not for residential work, either.
It is not uncommon to require the geotechnical people to visit the site while work is in progress, and if that is not included in the initial report, figure some extra down the road for it.

 

[CrabbyT]

I think you should get a couple more quotes.

In my opinion, $11300 for geotechnical services sounds steep. Also, their proposal should state that they will include the bearing strength and the soil classification in their report.

The last quote I saw for geotechnical services came in between $6000 and $7000, and it included (3) borings.

 

[EdStainless]

If there are any other building in the area there are likely some general reports in the public domain.
This might be a good place to start

https://websoilsurvey.sc.egov.usda.gov/App/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

Get your engineer for the foundation involved now, they will know what to ask for and what may not be needed.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[Rabbit12]

Doesn't hurt to get another quote or two, however, it looks like the goetech thinks this site has the potential for some fairly significant seismic hazards (liquefaction and lateral spread). Seems that is what is likely driving the cost up. Whether that is a fair price I have no idea as there are just too many variables involved.

 

[1503-44]

I ALWAYS try to get 3 proposals and hope I can afford the middle one. If its not close bid submission work, you might also get some negotiation leverage as well, if you decide you would rather like working with one of the higher bidders, but want to try to get a little better price tag.

 

[phamENG]

Next to a river could also pose some site access difficulties. I can get 2 borings with one of them up to 100ft deep here for $4500-$6000. But that's a flat site with easy access and no seismic considerations to speak of. If they need to carry a tripod rig in there, it's more labor intensive and takes a whole lot longer to accomplish what a truck mounted rig can do.

 

[gte447f]

Obviously your site is located in some kind of known geologic hazard and/or geohazard area if the county is requiring this sort of investigation. That means this geotechnical engineering investigation is going to be more involved than a standard geotechnical engineering investigation, so expect to pay an increased fee. You can always get additional proposals from other engineers. Otherwise, you aren't really qualified to evaluate the fees charged for professional engineering services.

 

[cvg]

if you were to post this question on the geotechnical forum, you might get different perspective.

https://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=274

 

[MTNClimber]

Similar to what others have said, it seems that this geotechnical engineer knows this site will likely have a lot of geologic hazards which need to be considered... or they're not sure at all and threw a high price to avoid putting themselves into a tough position if they find out there are a lot of issues during/after drilling. I don't practice in Washington. That said, don't assume the price to drill borings where someone else practices will be the same as your site. Some sites or geographic areas are very difficult and time consuming to drill deep borings while others are a piece of cake. On a granular site in the northeast, this could take 3 days to drill while on a clayey site in Colorado this could take 1-2 days. Drillers that charge day rate, that could be easily a difference of $3000-$6000 for just drilling and oversight.

I agree with others, just get some more quotes. Contact your structural or contractor to see if they have any recommendations for a geotech that does a lot of residential work. Some of the bigger firms are more tailored for larger projects which drives up their costs while small firms may be more cost effective for your project.

 

[Brad805]

Did you talk to the company to get a better understanding of what is involved and why the cost is what it is? We have hired geotechs that produce reports that cost this, and others that are much cheaper. Generally, you do tend to get what you pay for, but at times they may want to do more testing than you want or need.

 

[JLNJ]

Maybe you are paying a premium due to the liability.

 

[AndrewSherman]

Thanks Brand805. Initially the Engineering company quoted me $3,850 for the Geotechnical Investigation:

Geotechnical Investigation Fixed Fee:
For the scope of services described above, our services will be provided for a fixed fee of $3,580. In order to initiate our work, we require an up-front retainer fee of one-half of this amount. The remainder of the fixed fee is required prior to issuing our final report.


Then I was going to hire them and they came back:
I see I made a huge mistake on the emailed proposal quote.

The fee for the hazard assessment is correct, but the other fee quote is completely wrong – note that I did not change the pricing between the two phases! I apologize, as I have been very overworked.

The cost for the geotechnical portion (task 2) is $11,300, not the $3580 initially quoted. This is completely my fault and my error. Our cost includes drilling which is well over half of the fee, along with modeling and all the other items.

Due to the cost, I strongly suggest you get price quotes from other consultants to make sure we are in line with their pricing. I can help you with finding other consultants if you would like.

Please give me a call if you would like to discuss, and again, I apologize for the error.

 

[AndrewSherman]

Thanks PhamENG
There is a main road right alongside of the property. It should be easy access.
The building site I am proposing is just north of the cement slab on grade.
A boat shop used to be there.

 

[AndrewSherman]

One of the things they recommended is for the:
"investigation include quantitative modeling of seismically-induced liquefaction settlement and the potential for movement due to lateral spread".
I am not sure how much that will cost by itself since they didn't break down the quote by line items.

I don't know what I need because this is my first time needing a GeoTechnical and GeoHazard Area report.
Their principal geologist is recommending these analysis to be done.

 

[AndrewSherman]

Thank-you JStephen
I am in the process of applying for my shoreline variance. I have not been approved to put a house here since the setback is going to be less than 200 feet from the OHWM (Ordinary High Water Mark). The shoreline variance application goes in front of the Shoreline Hearing Board. Since I haven't been approved I have been holding off on getting an architect involved to work on finalizing my design. I certainly don't want to pay all this money for GeoTechnical and GeoHazard Area investigations if the Shoreline Hearing Board denies my variance request. But the way the county gave me my pre application, I have to supply all these as prerequisites before they will accept my Shoreline Variance application.

 

[SWComposites]

Hmmm, lets see, rivers tend to flood in western WA, you are likely building on river flood debris, then you are in the Cascadia subduction zone, so serious earthquake issue to consider ........

This site is for engineers to trade tips, not give you quotes or do designs.

 

[engrkaleem]

I have written a free article on it Sieve Analysis

 

[GeoEnvGuy]

A little late to the discussion but if you want a "quantitative modeling of seismically-induced liquefaction settlement" your geotechnical investigation requires CPT testing and should not rely on two holes with SPT testing at 2.5 or 5 foot intervals.