I will be graduating with my BS in Chemical Engineering Degree later this year. I really enjoy engineering and have some good job offers, but am wondering whether I am making a poor decision by not going for a graduate degree right out of school (as my professors seem to indicate). I wouldn't mind getting a masters degree but academia seems to have been phasing these out in the field of chemical engineering. ChE depts seem to push people straight to PhDs. There is no way Im going for a degree that takes 5-6 years, not to mention that I have no interest in ever working in a university, either as a post-doc or prof. I plan on going for an MBA once i pass my PE, but how much will not having an engineering masters degree hurt me? Any opinions or comments on this would be appreciated.
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Graduate Degree in Engineering? 5
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Unless you are wanting a research position, not having a masters shouldn't hurt at all..
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970
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"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970
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First, prioritize. You mention a Chemical Engineering masters degree, MBA and obtaining a PE. Which is more important to you? What is your level of patience? You don't wish to do an advanced degree over 5-6 years but it would likely take that long for a PE.
From an employer's standpoint, if you meet the qualifications for the job, you can/may be considered for the job. If you exceed the qualifications for a job, it is unlikely you will be considered for it. Determine if a masters in Chemical Engineering will help or hinder your future employability. Do you know what type of work in an industrial setting you would wish to do?
When you start working in industry, you will find that work history/experience will supercede academic experience in quite a few instances. Practical Industrial experience will help you out in an MBA program.
I suppose if I were in your position and wanted to persue an advanced degree, I would do the Master's in Chemical Engineering. From there go into industry and begin working toward the PE perhaps concurrently with an MBA. Remember though, once working in industry, you may overqualify yourself in your existing position and need to move on. Be prepared for this.
Regards,
From an employer's standpoint, if you meet the qualifications for the job, you can/may be considered for the job. If you exceed the qualifications for a job, it is unlikely you will be considered for it. Determine if a masters in Chemical Engineering will help or hinder your future employability. Do you know what type of work in an industrial setting you would wish to do?
When you start working in industry, you will find that work history/experience will supercede academic experience in quite a few instances. Practical Industrial experience will help you out in an MBA program.
I suppose if I were in your position and wanted to persue an advanced degree, I would do the Master's in Chemical Engineering. From there go into industry and begin working toward the PE perhaps concurrently with an MBA. Remember though, once working in industry, you may overqualify yourself in your existing position and need to move on. Be prepared for this.
Regards,
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2
- #4
The "advisors" in undergraduate programs tend to be academics who have never fed anywhere but at the scholastic trough. One of these morons counseled my son last semester that "Co-op programs are worthless and you'd be better off just taking the summer off". He did, now he's a sales clerk at an electronics store and not going back to his Junior year of Engineering School because he lost momentum.
Speaking as someone with a Masters in Engineering, staying for a Masters would be among the stupidest things you ever do in your life. A huge number of potential employers won't consider you, and those that do will not compensate you for the graduate degree. GET A JOB. In a few years (I waited 12, but that was probably too long), if you're still interested in graduate school you can decide if you want to advance on a "technical ladder" and get your MS ChE or on a "commercial ladder" and get your MBA (getting both sends a pretty confused mixed message). Night school is a pain, but the combination of a strong BS, at least 5 years experience, a PE, and a graduate degree significantly improves marketability/promotability even more than the Masters would hurt for someone looking for their first Engineering job.
David
Speaking as someone with a Masters in Engineering, staying for a Masters would be among the stupidest things you ever do in your life. A huge number of potential employers won't consider you, and those that do will not compensate you for the graduate degree. GET A JOB. In a few years (I waited 12, but that was probably too long), if you're still interested in graduate school you can decide if you want to advance on a "technical ladder" and get your MS ChE or on a "commercial ladder" and get your MBA (getting both sends a pretty confused mixed message). Night school is a pain, but the combination of a strong BS, at least 5 years experience, a PE, and a graduate degree significantly improves marketability/promotability even more than the Masters would hurt for someone looking for their first Engineering job.
David
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1
- #5
Having an engineering degree with practical engineering experience, and then getting an MBA always seems to have value.
When I received my BSEE 28 years ago, it was very respectful. However, with the subsequent flood of various ‘associates degrees’ in electronics, BSEET degrees, and many other electrical community college pseudo-degrees, the BSEE value has eroded and doesn't hold as much respect in the job market today. Only a MSEE is respectful today. I guess trend of 'degree erosion' is probably not an issue in the Chemical Engineering area.
If you see a new-era of chemistry or chemical applications on the horizon, be sure that the market will respond by flooding the chemistry and chemical engineering areas with a variety of low-end technical degrees devaluating your BS degree.
When I received my BSEE 28 years ago, it was very respectful. However, with the subsequent flood of various ‘associates degrees’ in electronics, BSEET degrees, and many other electrical community college pseudo-degrees, the BSEE value has eroded and doesn't hold as much respect in the job market today. Only a MSEE is respectful today. I guess trend of 'degree erosion' is probably not an issue in the Chemical Engineering area.
If you see a new-era of chemistry or chemical applications on the horizon, be sure that the market will respond by flooding the chemistry and chemical engineering areas with a variety of low-end technical degrees devaluating your BS degree.
The professors not only don't always have industry experience but it's in their favour to recruit more students.
More students = more money for their school.
That said I was originally on a Masters program and dropped to bachelors due to some poor grades.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
More students = more money for their school.
That said I was originally on a Masters program and dropped to bachelors due to some poor grades.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
moltenmetal
Chemical
The last thing a new graduate needs is more coursework. Forget about a coursework masters or MBA- the former is virtually worthless to you as an engineer, and the latter lost most of its market cachet a long time ago.
A research masters where you do hands-on experimentation is of some value to a chem eng, but only if you are interested in that kind of work. It's not a pill to take to make you a better job candidate- it's an educational opportunity. You learn, as I did, in excruciating detail, just how hard it is to come up with meaningful results and measurements that are defensible and repeatable. You will never trust data the same way again, and if you're smart, you'll understand why in most cases you don't NEED to trust it. Good, valuable experience, which may or may not ever be afforded to you in a work environment. Not to mention pretty low stress and good times while you're young enough (but probably not smart enough) to enjoy them!
Forget about a PhD unless you live in the US and want to subjugate the rest of your life entirely to your job (i.e. including where you live), or you really want to be a professor. Even if you really want the latter, please do us all a favour and get at least a few years work experience in the real world first before returning to the ivory tower.
A research masters where you do hands-on experimentation is of some value to a chem eng, but only if you are interested in that kind of work. It's not a pill to take to make you a better job candidate- it's an educational opportunity. You learn, as I did, in excruciating detail, just how hard it is to come up with meaningful results and measurements that are defensible and repeatable. You will never trust data the same way again, and if you're smart, you'll understand why in most cases you don't NEED to trust it. Good, valuable experience, which may or may not ever be afforded to you in a work environment. Not to mention pretty low stress and good times while you're young enough (but probably not smart enough) to enjoy them!
Forget about a PhD unless you live in the US and want to subjugate the rest of your life entirely to your job (i.e. including where you live), or you really want to be a professor. Even if you really want the latter, please do us all a favour and get at least a few years work experience in the real world first before returning to the ivory tower.
I got a BS in CE worked about 4 years and got a masters. Considered a doctorates, but decided against it. I sometimes regret that. I think it really helped me. Gave me a real good technical background. I do not have an MBA. I have hired engineers with MBA's I do not feel it is terribly useful. From what I have seen, MBA gives you a great deal of background in how bussiness should run, but very little in how they do run. I was glad I too the time from my BS to my ME as it allowed my to get a better idea of what areas I wanted to pursue.
electricpete
Electrical
As far as PE, for many people it's automatic and not enough effort that it excludes anything else. Get the experience, do the paperwork, take the test. If you should happen to fail on first attempt, perhaps at that time start studying seriously for the next round.
I got an MEA (similar to MBA) about 5 years graduation and an MS about 12 years after graduation. There's something to be said for getting out in the real world before continuing coursework. The MEA did not really excite me that much (personal preference). The MS really excited me because I got to choose my courses in the same areas that I was working on in my job. I looked forward to my courses and my projects, rather than viewing them as work as I had done while undergrad. Whether it has really gained me anything in career advancement is hard to say. But for me, it counts a lot that I enjoyed it so much.
In summary, I would highly recommend to engineers to get an MS after they have worked in engineering for awhile, especially if they plan to stay in the technical (vs managment) track.
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I got an MEA (similar to MBA) about 5 years graduation and an MS about 12 years after graduation. There's something to be said for getting out in the real world before continuing coursework. The MEA did not really excite me that much (personal preference). The MS really excited me because I got to choose my courses in the same areas that I was working on in my job. I looked forward to my courses and my projects, rather than viewing them as work as I had done while undergrad. Whether it has really gained me anything in career advancement is hard to say. But for me, it counts a lot that I enjoyed it so much.
In summary, I would highly recommend to engineers to get an MS after they have worked in engineering for awhile, especially if they plan to stay in the technical (vs managment) track.
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Most university lecturers couldn't make a go of it in the 'real world'. The world of ivory towers is pretty distant from the rigors & demands of life.
The real fun starts when you try & do a PhD later in life - no-one, even the dog, knows what to make of you.
Des Aubery...
(adTherm Technology - )
The real fun starts when you try & do a PhD later in life - no-one, even the dog, knows what to make of you.
Des Aubery...
(adTherm Technology - )
If you are considering an MBA, them you must be thinking about going into management at some point. If management suits you (people, manpower, schedules, money, status reports) then management is considered the more financially rewarding and lower stress career path.
electricpete
Electrical
I realize that to some extent the stress can be more related to the individual than the job.
Nevertheless, I am skeptical that management is in general a "lower stress" career path for engineers.
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Nevertheless, I am skeptical that management is in general a "lower stress" career path for engineers.
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- #13
I would like to propose a counter view, and support all the great professors at the "ivory towers" that my peers above seem to delight in casting in a lower light.
There are many professors in the "ivory towers" who are brilliant (as evidenced by the increasing number of "university initiated and joint ventures" to bring to market products and services originally developed in universities/colleges) and good intentioned (like mine, who many millenias ago, tried to help a confused young student who lacked direction as it were). Many professors can make it in the "real world" - probably more in percentage than people in the real world that can make it in the "ivory tower". Whether one would want to work in the real world, or ivory tower, is another topic all together.
Granted, there are many bad professors in the "ivory towers", as there are bad engineers at companies and bad managers - for example, at your current company.
Just because a professor encourages someone to continue onto a Masters or PhD does not make the encouragement good or bad. As an individual, we need to determine what makes sense for us. There are many jobs that do not need a masters degree. But, if you want a job that needs it, then you need to go and get one.
Everyone tends to "market" what they do, because they do it, and belive in it. That is only human nature.
![[soapbox]](/data/assets/smilies/soapbox.gif "[soapbox] [soapbox]")
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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There are many professors in the "ivory towers" who are brilliant (as evidenced by the increasing number of "university initiated and joint ventures" to bring to market products and services originally developed in universities/colleges) and good intentioned (like mine, who many millenias ago, tried to help a confused young student who lacked direction as it were). Many professors can make it in the "real world" - probably more in percentage than people in the real world that can make it in the "ivory tower". Whether one would want to work in the real world, or ivory tower, is another topic all together.
Granted, there are many bad professors in the "ivory towers", as there are bad engineers at companies and bad managers - for example, at your current company.
Just because a professor encourages someone to continue onto a Masters or PhD does not make the encouragement good or bad. As an individual, we need to determine what makes sense for us. There are many jobs that do not need a masters degree. But, if you want a job that needs it, then you need to go and get one.
Everyone tends to "market" what they do, because they do it, and belive in it. That is only human nature.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Ashereng,
People are individuals. Any generalization about people will have a significant number of exceptions. There are people at universities who would succeed in any venue that that found themselves in. There are people in industry who only have jobs because their management is too lazy to fire them.
The point of most of the posts above is that industry tends to not value graduate degrees for people without industry experience. The same industries do tend to value graduate degrees for people who gain industry experience between undergraduate and graduate schools.
The majority of professors that counsel graduate school for recent graduates are ignoring this "fact" of corporate life. Most of the people I've heard of giving this advice don't have industry experience. I can't think of a pejorative that is too strong for these "campus recruiters". In my mind, regardless of their native ability, they are slime who should never be allowed face to face with a student.
David
People are individuals. Any generalization about people will have a significant number of exceptions. There are people at universities who would succeed in any venue that that found themselves in. There are people in industry who only have jobs because their management is too lazy to fire them.
The point of most of the posts above is that industry tends to not value graduate degrees for people without industry experience. The same industries do tend to value graduate degrees for people who gain industry experience between undergraduate and graduate schools.
The majority of professors that counsel graduate school for recent graduates are ignoring this "fact" of corporate life. Most of the people I've heard of giving this advice don't have industry experience. I can't think of a pejorative that is too strong for these "campus recruiters". In my mind, regardless of their native ability, they are slime who should never be allowed face to face with a student.
David
Hi David,
I see that you have some personal experience with this, and I guess unfortunately, the experience(s) did not work out well from your point of view.
Like I said in my post, I am adding a voice in support of the "majority of professors" that I believe are doing their best for their students, and actually do realise what the "real world" requires.
I am not discounting your experiences and thoughts on this matter. I am simply voicing support for the "ivory towers".
On a separte note, you mentioned that you have a MS and may be persuing further education/course work? Perhaps you may consider a PhD and join the ivory towers? Your many years of experience will serve the students well.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
I see that you have some personal experience with this, and I guess unfortunately, the experience(s) did not work out well from your point of view.
Like I said in my post, I am adding a voice in support of the "majority of professors" that I believe are doing their best for their students, and actually do realise what the "real world" requires.
I am not discounting your experiences and thoughts on this matter. I am simply voicing support for the "ivory towers".
On a separte note, you mentioned that you have a MS and may be persuing further education/course work? Perhaps you may consider a PhD and join the ivory towers? Your many years of experience will serve the students well.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
I really haven't decided if I'll ever do anything with the next degree, but I probably will join that elite group (summers off seems like the right amount of leisure for my golden years, more than that I'll probably just curl up and die).
Hopefully any career advice I'm called upon to provide will be tempered by a lifetime of "working for a living". The real saving grace is so few people follow free advice, so how much harm can I do?
David
Hopefully any career advice I'm called upon to provide will be tempered by a lifetime of "working for a living". The real saving grace is so few people follow free advice, so how much harm can I do?
David
I really never found an "Ivory Tower" mentality among professors. Most of mine were in involved in reseach and consulting on very exciting projects. I disagree that getting a masters straight out of school and then gets 2 years experienceis valued less than some one who waits two years to get a masters.
My point is that when you get a masters, you select a field within a disipline in which to to specialize. by working in the field for a few years you a) do have a better appreciation of which field to go into and b) can see how the course work can be applied.
The only problem is that after working a few years that you begin to actually make money, and you are no longer poor enough to go to school.
My point is that when you get a masters, you select a field within a disipline in which to to specialize. by working in the field for a few years you a) do have a better appreciation of which field to go into and b) can see how the course work can be applied.
The only problem is that after working a few years that you begin to actually make money, and you are no longer poor enough to go to school.
DRC1,
Every field is different. In Geophysics for example you can't get a job without a masters. I've heard that some of the disciplines in Civil Engineering are getting to be the same way.
In Mechanical Engineering you can't get a job with a masters unless you have relevant experience. My guess is that Chem Eng is similar.
About professors and research. I had a fluids professor in grad school who had never worked anywhere but at universities. He did a lot of research. When I had him he was doing reasearch on blood flow in the human body so we got a lot of incompressible flow in a pipe stuff, but we also got an outrageous emphisis on shear stresses. A firend of mine had him a couple of years later and he had moved on to some river-flow research, and that class did nothing but open-channel flow. He may have been doing reasearch, but it didn't relate very well to any world I know of. That was ivory tower in the worst sense of the term.
David
Every field is different. In Geophysics for example you can't get a job without a masters. I've heard that some of the disciplines in Civil Engineering are getting to be the same way.
In Mechanical Engineering you can't get a job with a masters unless you have relevant experience. My guess is that Chem Eng is similar.
About professors and research. I had a fluids professor in grad school who had never worked anywhere but at universities. He did a lot of research. When I had him he was doing reasearch on blood flow in the human body so we got a lot of incompressible flow in a pipe stuff, but we also got an outrageous emphisis on shear stresses. A firend of mine had him a couple of years later and he had moved on to some river-flow research, and that class did nothing but open-channel flow. He may have been doing reasearch, but it didn't relate very well to any world I know of. That was ivory tower in the worst sense of the term.
David
GregLocock
Automotive
DRC1
Your opinion flies in the face of Australian statistics. The starting pay for engineers with more degrees is lower than for those with just a normal 4 year degree. A PhD is worse than a masters.
Now, starting pay is not everything... but it is one of the few objective measures we have. Of the PhDs I have worked with, I'd say they represent a span of ability about equal to the rest of us.
My personal opinion is that academics tend to overvalue academic degrees, and I suspect that those of us at the pointy end tend to over-emphasise experience.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Your opinion flies in the face of Australian statistics. The starting pay for engineers with more degrees is lower than for those with just a normal 4 year degree. A PhD is worse than a masters.
Now, starting pay is not everything... but it is one of the few objective measures we have. Of the PhDs I have worked with, I'd say they represent a span of ability about equal to the rest of us.
My personal opinion is that academics tend to overvalue academic degrees, and I suspect that those of us at the pointy end tend to over-emphasise experience.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Interesting comments, Greg. I'd tend to agree.
Post-graduate degrees develop specialist skills in advanced research techniques, & technical writing. That's about the true value of them - to industry.
I have returned to academic studies in the latter part of my career, but in parallel to a busy consulting career.
In my experience, most academics are essentially specialist teachers & are very narrow in their fields of expertise. What use is a professor specialising in advanced tensor calculus - to much of industry, for instance?
Des Aubery...
(adTherm Technology)
Post-graduate degrees develop specialist skills in advanced research techniques, & technical writing. That's about the true value of them - to industry.
I have returned to academic studies in the latter part of my career, but in parallel to a busy consulting career.
In my experience, most academics are essentially specialist teachers & are very narrow in their fields of expertise. What use is a professor specialising in advanced tensor calculus - to much of industry, for instance?
Des Aubery...
(adTherm Technology)
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