Handling meetings and acquiring knowledge of other disciplines when working as an HVAC engineer 11

[TabRazesMechEngr]

Hello everyone. I have been viewing this forum for past 2 weeks and have found it incredibly helpful! And therefore, I want to post a question that has crossed my mind time and again. As a junior HVAC design engineer (2.5 years exp.), sometimes its hard to convince the people of a certain proposal in a meeting! When discussing technical issues with the engineers from other disciplines, they seem to be justifying their stances all the time and keep on bringing up the stupid claim of "experience" as if its taken for granted that someone with 10 or more years of experience is going to be right all the time. What I want to ask is that whether an extensive knowledge is actually required of other fields like structural or electrical in order to come up triumphs in the meeting or should one just equip himself with enough knowledge in his disicipline (in my case HVAC) and not be too concerned of the non-sensical opinions of architects or for that matter electrical engineers. I am pretty sure that many of you might have been in this situation many times during your career.

 

[willard3]

In Engineering, experience is the best teacher.

My original mentor once said to me: "You can make any mistake you want and we'll fix it.....if you make the same mistake twice, I'll kill you."

 

[EnergyProfessional]

It is not actual 20 year experience when you are wrong all the time....
Experience is somewhat important. but 20 year experience also can mean they are still stuck in 1990...

I see many of those "experienced" engineers still use triple duty valves on Variable pump systems,

You should have some knowledge of other fields. After all you HVAC equipment needs to be supported, use electricity...

The problem is how do you show the client at 2.5 years you are better than the competition>? and I take it you don't have a license yet, since that requires 4 years? That may be more the issue when not getting clients.

 

[TabRazesMechEngr]

@HerrKaaLeun actually, i I wrongly wrote the word proposals in my question which might have made you think of the client. Rather I meant the discussions in an internal coordination meeting or a project meeting with the architects and the other engineers. Of course, I am fully aware of the fact that any client isnt going to entertain anyone other than a senior engineer due to obvious reasons. What I meant was that if I observe a mistake made by some senior guy of other department and you bring it to notice in the meeting and want to get it rectified, the guy just escapes by giving some ridiculous explanation related to his experience and the people seem to buy it!! It is perplexing and demotivating at the same time because it feels like a personal bias

 

[Compositepro]

Faraz, you cannot fix stupid. All you can do is to remain professional and present your arguments objectively and without emotional bias. Experience can have great value, but if that cannot be backed-up with reasonable explanations then it is correct to question it. At least in your own mind. It is important to be respectful of others if you want that in return.
My personal experience is that the designs I see in HVAC are some of the worst, technically and on average, in any industry. It is probably because there is so much pressure to keep cost down and there is little incentive for designs that are robust, low maintenance, and truly save energy in the long run.
If this problem persists the only solution may be to find a new job. Just be careful that it is not you who is the problem. We can't tell from here. If you find the same situation at several jobs it might be time to consider that the problem is with you. But it is also quite possible that you are working with incompetents. That's part of the job everywhere and you have to learn to deal with it without getting upset. Just remember that people who are incompetent are also insecure and defensive, but they are trying to earn a living, too. If you publicly humiliate them they will become your enemy.

 

[Drazen]

i would stay close to willard quote.

i remember my first two year, working on the very complex project on second year - it is only two times during all that period that I myself gave any proposal, and in both cases.

all the remaining time i was listening to others. maybe it is much listening that helped me to realize how much i miss until being able to make "well rounded" solutions.

you CAN beat long-time experience, but only if you have very good and comprehensive arguments. and such circumstances do not appear too often as you simply have too little experience.

anyhow, you can go through with any argument only if you can quantify your solution, otherwise the story of who is older and how much does it mean is senseless.

 

[MintJulep]

You seem to have a rather inflated opinion of your own rather limited experience to go along with your obvious disdain of pretty much everybody else.

This might be in large part why no one pays attention to what you say in meetings.

 

[RossABQ]

If you observe a problem with another discipline, I would not bring it to everyone's attention in a meeting. Do it off-line. You'll make more friends that way. Especially if it turns out the other discipline knows their trade as well as you know yours.

 

[EnergyProfessional]

It seems here is a lot of advice and you have to apply it to your life.

Unfortunately, often it is better to listen (the three wise monkeys). I made it my policy if I see a problem, to point it out at least once

 

[TabRazesMechEngr]

Thanks for all the advice guys, this is why I love this forum, practical advice from professional people .
@RossABQ I would definitely go with your advice as a one on one discussion can be much more beneficial and will lighten the matter as well.
As to the other advices, yes I do understand that I got to develop a thicker skin and listen to other people rather than getting agitated too quickly. I do understand that I still have a lot to learn and I am on the lower side of experience. I am by the way, planning to change the company in the next 2 months and will try my best to implement these advices from the beginning if GOD wills and do the same for the remaining time period in this company as well.

 

[IRstuff]

Experience: We once designed a test fixture for our equipment, and our customer's lead engineer came in, took one look at our fixture's drawing in our Powerpoint and said, "You guys need to re-check your design; I think there's going to be a resonance around 30 Hz." He was wrong, it was 36 Hz. Our engineers obviously wound up with serious egg on their faces.

I would suggest that you temper your assertions, which can only be mostly based on textbook learning, against someone else's longer experience. There is nothing harder than to try and figure out why someone designed something a certain way. Even the engineer may not be able to articulate, or has forgotten, the specific design requirements. We used to complain about management's "logic inverter" wherein they made certain decisions that seemed to be totally illogical, but my boss showed me that their decisions were perfectly logical, because their constraints were simply not obvious to us. Likewise, certain design decisions must be cast in the light of the design constraints that the engineer works to, which may not be readily apparent to you. So what you see as an "error" may be perfectly fine and possibly even required.

Likewise, I would suggest that you do not EVER confront a co-worker in public over something like this; it is both unprofessional and childish, regardless of whether you are correct or not. Particularly in the presence of a customer, which requires your antagonist to a) be defensive, and b) put you down as quickly as possible, since there is almost nothing worse than the customer witnessing a subcontractor's conflicts and controversies during a meeting. You are a representative and an employee of your company, and barring issues of public safety, you are required to ensure that your company continues to do business. I'm not suggesting that you should condone or do anything wrong, but dirty laundry just should not be aired in public, particularly when it becomes an embarrassment to a coworker.

TTFN
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[ProcessHVAC]

You are not making much sense to me. Why would you want to tell an electrical or structural engineer how to do their job? You are an HVAC designer, so don't waste your time; chances are you don't know even know what you are doing in your own field just yet.

If that is your strategy for "planning to change the company in the next 2 months..if GOD wills", you are asking for trouble..

 

[TabRazesMechEngr]

@ProcessHVAC:- well I do know what I am talking about and the problem is that u just didnt understand the circumstance I posted the question under. if you were to place linear grilles in a large curved attrium and some one were to place the lights right over them and not coordinate with us and then put the blame on us in the meeting unfairly then I dont need to be an electrical engineer to tell them to move the lighting parallel to the grilles as the attrium is pretty wide.
And I didnt tell anything about the structural engineers here. The problem with the architects may be a global one because they change areas nytime they like even if the deadline is around the corner!!

 

[317069]

Why didn't you and the electrical engineer coordinate together before the meeting.
and is there a problem if you move your grill or he moves his light.
put you self in his situation then think of it, he might has good reason other than my word against your word, and don't forget the company has a manager and he is the one who has to solve such problems.
in engineering business there is nothing called if God wills.

 

[GMcD]

CompositePro has it nailed- the HVAC (MEP) industry, at least in my area of the North American Continent, is a continual race to the bottom in terms of fees and quality. We've become a commodity and we act like it - and those few who want to improve quality and improve the designs are just pounded down with the "business management" side to minimize hours, use the lowest paid guy to do the most work, and hope that nothing screws up too bad after the building has been occupied.

To address the original post - the best thing to do is to watch and learn and know how all the building systems work together - in order to do your heat losses and heat gains you have to know architectural building science and building physics, in order to route your services around the building you have to know how the structure works, and you also have to know how work with the electrical consultant to allow the HVAC systems to work and be controlled properly and allow him to do his job to wire up the building.

 

[QualityTime]

At 2.5 years’ experience you probably still have a problem figuring out that the line that you see on the drawing is a curb. I bet you right now you don’t know how to nail two pieces of wood together and read a blue print on how to build an entire house. But you want to be in control.

Most HVAC engineers I have come across are very poor when it comes to HVAC electrical understanding and BAS controls. They may have a 10,000 ft level of understanding HVAC equipment but not a detailed level of understanding. At this stage of your career you have not learned how to think 3 dimensionally. You still think 2 dimensionally. It takes time to absorb different engineering experiences. It takes time to learn how to talk to disciplines and understand what they are talking about and what you have to give to them so that they can complete their work. Listen to what others are advising in this thread

 

[cry22]

Got to understand other disciplines, you are part of a team.
You need to reach out during the production cycle to other trades. I see so many Mech engineers who never talk to the architect.

We HVAC engineers are called to contribute a great deal to projects, especially in LEED projects, we bring half the points, we address the ASHRAE 90.1/62.1/55 pre-requisites, we address the Commissioning, the LCC for the EA credits, we document the IEQ, etc.
In a word, we are more important than ever actually.

To be seen as a good engineer by architects and be considered you need to know the following:

1. Learn your ASHRAE 90.1 real well, it will come handy with architects, especially with building envelope.
2. How to contribute LEED points. Be well versed into sustainability.
3. Know your life safety code, smoke control, smoke rated wall requirements, etc.
4. Be good at space planning ahead of time (give him/her your Mech room and shaft space very early). Prepare your equipment weights, your power requirements, your RCP, etc... Your work these out before the meeting, not during the meeting.
5. Get your work reviewed by others - EARLY, cause change orders will kill whatever is left of your reputation.
6. Anticipate architectural changes, go over arch plans twice a week and check their latest plans, chances are, you can catch the changes and accommodate without irritating the architects. Architects are lousy communicators with engineers. Tell them it is OK to change, jut tell me about the change right away.

And yes, as others have said, our industry sucks. We see contractors and architects dictating which systems to use. We are a bunch of lousy bend-over guys.
One more thing: Reason most your HVAC engineers don't have a clue is they don't get any training at all, HVAC is NOT taught in school and yet corporations expect someone out of college to be productive.

 

[TabRazesMechEngr]

@cry22 Thanks for the useful info and practical advice. Your last para is true to its every word!!

 

[fiberstress]

Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18
Some people never learn this in their whole life.
Be absolutely sure you know what you're talking about and state it politely and humbly knowing that none of us (including yourself) really know anything. Also, your potential disrespect for a senior will likely overshadow your being right to most bosses, so watch yourself with that, too.