HAP Carrier Software Help 5

[rra1990]

Hi! Good day!

I'm a fresh graduate M.E. Currently working here in K.S.A as a Gen.Mechanical Engineer, recently my company transferred me to HVAC Design Engineer. They provided me this HAP Carrier software. I tried to search tutorials of this software, so far I only get the .pdf manual guide and basics of inputting data values etc.

Our company is a new construction company. I have no one to ask about this software. ( Even my boss doesn't know about this software. And I need your guides on how can i design cooling/heating load.

I tried many times using the software but i dont know if my calculations are correct. My company usually construct villa's, offices and schools here in KSA. They always use Split Units,Concealed Type and Package Types.

I want to know how to design the tonnage or required CFM of a given space using this software as well as which type of Units should I use or input in HAP. (VAV,CAV) and maybe get some tips from you fellow engrs.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Drazen]

I feel that you are trapped on that working place.

If your boss believes that supplying you with HAP will make you HVAC engineer, his approach is so hopeless that you would better seek for other job.

HAP is a tool, can help you the same way lathe helps machinist - you need to learn the trade, than use tools, not vice-versa, tools will not learn you the trade.

Even worse, if you find some workarounds to finish some projects in whatever ways, you will adopt bad practice, and it will be very hard to get rid of them later - you will not become professional that way.

The best way I can imagine is to demand from you boss to provide you with mentor, it can be from outside company, but has to be experienced HVAC engineer. Anything else is very bad.

 

[rra1990]

@Drazen

Yeah I feel trapped here. But personally I enjoy this environment with me "as of now". I found it challenging yet arrogant.

This HAP software is helpful i think if I can use it correctly. And that's my problem. I don't have mentors to ask. Even sizing a simple room or office makes me wonder how and what to input. Kinda stuck in my head. I hope there is something like seminar here for this software or even online tutorials. This forum really helps me, the way i browse other topics I get to know new ideas and knowledge about designing HVAC.

Can i ask a thing or two @Drazen?

When designing HVAC cooling/heating load is there any steps to follow so I wont be lost during calculation times? And how can i translate it to ductwork. (I have a Ductulator software)

Thanks! Appreciate your time.

 

[dbill74]

Hey RRA1990

Let me first say that I agree 100% with Drazen, you need to find a mentor and work with him/her for several years.
Also, unless you have your Professional Engineering license (being fresh from school, I am doubting that), you and your company are teetering with a legal trouble as any plans/specs submitted to an AHJ requires a P.E. to sign/seal the drawings. If your company is not looking for or refuses to find you a mentor, quit while you're ahead.

Regarding HAP, I use this myself and the steps I go through when doing a load is as follows:
1) Set the weather/location.
2) Build your libraries, input all applicable information for walls, roofs, windows, doors, shades.
3) Set your schedules. You will need at least 2. A schedule for people/occupant or equipment, set a percentage for each hour of the day. A second is for thermostats and set the system to occupied/unoccupied.
- If all you are doing is calculations for sizing purposes, leaving the people/equipment at 100% 24/7 is all you need, same with the t'stat schedule, leave them 'occupied' all day. If/when you get into simulating and doing calculations for LEED, you will need to adjust these but that is a different topic for a different time.
4) Build your spaces. In the Space properties window, start with the general tab and work left to right. It is okay to skip a tab or leave select requirements blank or 0 (not every room will have a roof or an exterior wall), if HAP needs a requirement such as a schedule, it will let you know and prevent you from moving to the next tab or closing the window.
5) Build your systems. Like the spaces window work left to right on the tabs, what you input on the General tab will affect options on other tabs.
At this point you will done with inputting data for most jobs, the job is a campus (multiple buildings) you can add buildings and plants as needed.
6) You are now ready to start calculating loads. to do that right click a system and select Print/View Design Results
7) Analyze the results. This is where you are getting stuck and this is where you need an experienced engineer to help and teach you the trade.
8) Tweak inputs as needed. As often happens with me a piece of information gets missed during steps 1-5, when this happens cooling loads in step 6 will be off. Recognizing when something is 'off' is a skill that comes with time and experience and where a mentor is invaluable.
9) Repeat 6-9 as needed.
10) Select equipment.

Let me finish by reiterating the importance of finding a mentor, no company is worth working for at the cost of ruining your career before it gets started. If you haven't already, put your resume on careerbuilder, monster, and any other job finder sites you know of. Do this and I bet you will be contacted by technical recruiters within the week, use them and let them help you find a job with an engineering firm that will grow you as an engineer.

Good luck.

 

[rra1990]

@dbill74

Thank you for your time explaining me about HAP. very appreciative
I follow your steps regarding this HAP and I'm kinda lost in this tab.

SPACE PROPERTIES
*Exposure. What does it mean? is it the wall exposed outdoor?
Same for the roof exposure.

*Infiltration. I want to set my infiltration all hours. But then is there any charts or tables I can use for inputting CFM, CFM/ft^2, and ACH for DESIGN COOLING, DESIGN HEATING?
-for example, I'm trying to read the tutorial of HAP Software, there is one school example and they already indicated the DESIGN COOLING and HEATING for that building. my question is WHERE they get that? Please help me with this one. :'(

*Floors. As for floor types there is 4 choices. I just don't know whats the meaning of each one and what will I use. (

I know it's not your job to answer my questions or even help me. But please I'm asking for help. I'm doomed and trapped.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

[dbill74]

On any tab you have questions about, press 'F1', this will bring up HAP help guide for that particular tab. I have found the HAP help guide very useful for explaining the terms and input fields. More help can be found here.
From the help guide

Wall Exposure defines the direction the exterior surface of the wall faces. Any of 16 principal orientations can be chosen from the drop-down list in this column. To add a wall exposure, change its orientation from "not used" to one of the 16 principal orientations. When you do this, data items for the exposure will be enabled. To delete a wall exposure, change its orientation to "not used". When you do this, data items for the exposure will be disabled.

HAP only gives 17 options for a wall's direction, 'Not Used' and 16 cardinal directions, frequently walls (and roofs) do not face in exactly one of these directions, just choose the closest direction for a particular wall/roof.
With a roof, you have an additional direction 'H' for horizontal, in other words a flat or low slope roof.

ASHRAE has some guides for calculating infiltration

On the floors, read through the help page using F1 as I described above. All the information you need is in there.

All the information you input for libraries and spaces is not determined by you (with the possible exception of infiltration); you are just relaying information from architectural plans into the program.

 

[SAK9]

Your best bet is contacting carrier and asking them whether they conduct any training classes for new users.If they do not,then switch to another software where the vendor can provide you training.If none of these work,pack your bags and leave because even if you work for many years in this environment,you are never going to be a finished product.

 

[MechItHappen]

@RRA1990 download the Taco-Load Calculator since it is a MUCH easier load-calc program to use than HAP. It's also free. Also, download the McQuay (now Daikin) pipesizer, ductsizer, and psychrometric analyzer since these tools are free and easy to use.

Get a copy of the 1996 Trane Air Conditioning Manual, (HVAC Equations, Data, and Rules of Thumb), and HVAC Systems Design Handbook. The HVAC Systems Design Handbook is probably one of the last recent references to hand load calcs you can find. The HVAC Equations, Data, and Rules of Thumb has the data limits you need (ie, infiltration max and mins) to complete a load calc, and the 1996 Trane Air Conditioning Manual (first 5 chapters) have the most practical and thorough examples of psychrometric calcs and heat gains which are essential to HAP or Taco-Load Calculator.

 

[rra1990]

@dbill74 @SAK9 @MechItHappen ,

Thank you for your time to answer. I appreciate it so much. Thank you for helping me.

Now I tried to review the example that HAP give to me. I have a couple of question here. The picture is attached.

On the 1st picture it says it needs 29Ton right???. But when i tried to use the rule of thumb that is 1ton=400cfm it doesnt match. Why?

And on the second picture I found this design cooling and heating values. When i tried to compute it by 12,000BTU/hr it shows almost 30tons.

What values should I use here? Should I go on the 1st picture or 2nd picture? thanks!!

 

[show790]

dear

i am also in ksa . and i am working in same field . when you finish calculation use this sample ruls

1 TR are enough for 12 SQMT for villas
1 TR are enough for 10 SQMT for schools as you have big occupancy

for air side and duct design

I TR need Around 400 CFM

exanple

if u have room with 3 m * 4 m
so you have 12 SQMT
so u need 1TR - 400 cfm if it in villa and 1.2 tr - 480 cfm if it in schools

 

[rra1990]

@show790,

Thank you sir. This is a great help. Yeah here in my contracting company, usually they get villa and schools project. About your sample rules, a 12SQMT room needs a 1TR AC. You disregard the room height? I thought the volume of the room is necessary for computing room loads. But anyway your sample rule is much appreciated. very very

 

[show790]

dear

normally in villas or schools high not too mush . this rules are good for rooms height between 2.4 - 3.5 meter if u have more height put .5 TR more .

you most welcome

 

[Drazen]

MechItHappen, I am wondering why anyone would be so foolish to purchase some complex software like HAP when everything can be done much simpler with Taco Load, and even for free?

 

[rra1990]

I've downloaded the Taco Load Tool that you are saying @MechItHappen & @Drazen. Yeah the interface and procedure is much simpler than HAP. I've notice on the weather tab it doesnt contain Saudi Arabia. Can I use the weather info on HAP and input it on the Taco Load Tool? Thanks!!

 

[moideen]

Hap is a best tool for heat load calculation based on ashrae fundamentals and latest recommendations. The thump rules always not applicable in commercial design purpose. Ok, you can consider thump rule on window ac design. If you don’t know the software it is not meaning to curse the software.

thanks
moideen
dubai

 

[dbill74]

RRA1990,
Remember how I said you will get stuck in analyzing the results? (See me previous post, step 7.) Well here you are, Step 7 and you need a mentor or a P.E. providing responsible oversight.
To answer your question of which value to use from Picture #1 or Picture #2? I don't know, I am only able to get the Zone Sizing Summary picture (Picture #2?).
I am guessing Picture #1 is supposed to be System Sizing summary in which case it doesn't matter. Any variance is small and due to how your computer is handling rounding in the calculations.

Rules-of-thumbs are only intended to provide rough guidance in the absence of actual calculations. Rarely will you see a calculation result perfectly match a rule-of-thumb. If you were coming up with 300 CFM/ton, then maybe you need to look closer at your inputs.

HAP vs Taco-Load: I've only seen the tutorial video and what I saw is good for a free program. However, HAP has many more tools and ways to customize your calculations. As an example the BTUH per person, I didn't see but one place to input that in Taco-Load (granted there is the option to over-ride), but it is unclear what activity level that value is for plus you need to lookup the correct value for the space's activity; in HAP you input person BTUH at each room but there is a pull-down that lets you adjust according to the activity level of a room with preset values from ASHRAE. Another area where it looks like HAP has the advantage is in wall and roof constructs; Taco-Load has plenty of presets but I did not see where you could build a custom wall/roof; whereas HAP has a number of pre-defined walls and roof, it lets you modify or create your own to match the walls and roofs you actually have on a project.

 

[MechItHappen]

@Drazen HAP is definitely a more complex and robust HVAC load calculation program than Taco. Also, Taco just has weather data for Canada and USA. However, what cannot be overstated is that either program can just as easily mess up a load calculation if the engineer doesn't understand how to work it. HAP also has psychrometric reports per system and room which are very good backup data to ensure rooms have proper dehumidification at the cooling systems design supply air temperature.

@RRA1990 The following link is a very useful quick reference guide to the HAP software. Good luck! Link

 

[rra1990]

@dbill74,

Yes sir I reattached the image today. this is the system sizing summary.
Why is it doesn't matter?? Meaning I should pick 30tons?

 

[dbill74]

It doesn't matter because they are the same. The Air System Sizing Summary page takes pieces of information from all the calculations and system inputs to create a report to give you, the engineer, a big pictures summary for the system. This includes design cooling and heating loads, when the design conditions occur ("Load Occurs at ...."), EAT/LAT, Outside Ventilation Air, etc.

The Air System Design Load Summary page summarizes totals and summarizes cooling and heating loads for all zones/rooms on the system. It breaks down the loads into the various factors that go into calculating the loads, then gives a total at the bottom.

This is also where you need help you can't get in these forums. Learning and understanding the different loads (Sensible vs Latent vs Total), and how they are calculated and related. You will also benefit having someone walk you through the process of selecting a system. At 50% OA you will need a unit that is specifically designed to handle that much OA. Offhand, this looks like a good system to consider using an energy recovery unit.