Help with bidding a project 2

[JStructsteel]

Got a request for design and drafting of a unique home. See attached. 5000sf, no basement, steel framing. Backside has lots of glass, so expecting alot of moment framing, etc

What are some order of magnitudes you would charge for this?

 

[phamENG]

Sorry, when I say big guys, I'm talking about the local big guys, which is my primary competition for the jobs I want to do. For us, that's firms with 4-8 engineers and a CAD staff. We have a couple regional firms with offices in town that do all government/higher ed work and have billable rates for project engineers pushing $200. The mega firms are a few hours north in DC. I bill myself out at about 95% of what my old firm bills project engineers for (about 67% of what I'd be billed for if I were still there), but base pricing on general market value. So small clients with small jobs that prefer hourly get a little bit of a break, but when I'm courting mid-range architecture firms I'm cost competitive but not suspiciously cheap. I also don't want to be one of the guys who drives the whole market down just because I can pay my bills with a little less.

 

[EngineeringEric]

Pham, you'd do that house for 9K or even 12K? you are driving prices down for us I imagine you produce very high quality work with your knowledge you share here, your clients are lucky to get your skill level only working on their projects!

Right now the last custom house we did was priced at %375 sq.ft. and it wasn't as modern as those renderings. so that raises Pham's fee a little to 15-16k

I'd anticipate you'll have 2-3 plan sheets, 3 detail sheets because that roof is complicated, a notes sheet, and likely a framing elevation sheet. At 2.5k a sheet plus fluff = 15-17.5... And then I add 15-20% for custom homes because they are often more complicated than commercial and I nearly always go over budget without this increase. Residential requires more details than commercial in all the custom homes I've done in my neck of the woods.

CA: I agree with others, I'd keep it at hourly and provide an estimate at 25% of design (pre-residential factor) so in the end my CA is normally 18-20% of my design effort.

I also would recommend that you add a DD phase in your design proposal at a minimum... it helps with progress billing and it serves as a stop gap to fix the architects issues before they get too far.

 

[phamENG]

Eric - that's because you're dealing with the hoity-toity Williamsburg folk - the swamp rats and beach bums down here aren't quite as willing to give up the cash.

 

[GC_Hopi]

I prefer using Eric's method for costing. Giving a little thought on the number of sheets and the number of hours per sheet (cost per sheet) seems to work out well. I reserve the percent of construction cost as a secondary check since I dont think it is accurate for each design service (structural, architectural, mechanical, etc) but the percent method is probably good enough for an estimate the total design cost.

 

[EngineeringEric]

Come join the hoity-toity pockets sometime! Plus then we can try to take more work from those southside large firms! (ignore that my soul currently is owned by a mega-firm!)

I'll add, I am now writing a proposal and have done the %construction, Sheets, and my own tasks x hourly rate method. the fee on the proposal is the reasonable average of these three.

 

[phamENG]

Ha. Thanks, but I'll pass on that for now. We were looking at moving into your neighborhood last year, but opted to stay down here in the swamp. But when the Navy brought me here years ago I said if I ever stayed it would be in Williamsburg or Yorktown, so you never know...

I'm surprised said mega-firm is letting you do residential. In speaking with your also recently acquired mega-firm geotechs I was told corporate wouldn't let them do residential work anymore and I had to look elsewhere.

 

[Aesur]

I also don't want to be one of the guys who drives the whole market down just because I can pay my bills with a little less.

I am happy to see you say that, we need more "one man shops" thinking like that. I can't stand when I get the question "can you lower your fee since you're office is remote and you don't have all the overhead of larger firms?" (even though we aren't a "one man shop" anymore, but are 100% remote). We too try to price projects along the lines of our competitors and let our quality speak for itself and in some instances we get better fees for similar work to our competitors because of this. This is why we get a good many high end custom homes, large apartments and commercial work and turn away the projects where the architect pushes for the cheapest possible fee and doesn't care about quality.

 

[haynewp]

I found these from a few years ago.

 

[Aesur]

Great information @haynewp, however in my experience those numbers are over double what you would actually get for most markets.

 

[haynewp]

It’s from RSMeans. I agree it’s high but definitely what we SHOULD be getting for the life safety responsibility we take on.

 

[GC_Hopi]

So if you use the table on the custom home in the OP. 5000 sf * 250 $/sf * 1.6 % = 20,000 $. People were throwing out numbers like 12k to 17.5k. Those are all under the value derived from the table and range from 60% to 88%. Thats interesting...

 

[Enable]

GC_Hopi that table looks like it comes from RSMeans. Don't put much stock into it (EDIT - sorry already mentioned above). I use RSMeans for estimating construction projects from time to time but if you don't already have a ballpark of your market numbers +/- the tables will kill your bid (in either direction). They are a good order of magnitude guideline but I wouldn't use them for anything more than that.

 

[phamENG]

Assuming the locality multipliers are the same for construction, my market has about a 16% reduction. So I'm a little lower than the means table suggests, but not significantly.

 

[GeorgeTheCivilEngineer]

For larger projects I do three methods and compare...

1% of total project value
Half what the architect is charging
Estimate hours and calculate directly

Final step is a finger in air and hope for the best.

 

[dik]

Add one... estimate the number of drawings required and get a time...
Remove one... 'half of what the architect is charging.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Do you feel any better?

-Dik

 

[JStructsteel]

FYI, I went in at 9K. Part of me wants to do that job. I think there will be some repetition of design in the frames, or at least close enough. No basement makes it a bit easier.

I did get the job, so will see if it pans out at 9K as a good or bad choice.

 

[jayrod12]

9k for design only? What's the agreement for CA phase?

 

[JStructsteel]

9k for all. Being residential I dont expect too much CA. Plus Im doing all the framing, no trusses, etc. Will be shops to review though.