Higher boost and E85 or Methanol 9

[Nitr0EngiEx]

I have a mazdaspeed 3 with a built motor and a Garrett 3076 turbo. the engine is 2.4L Direct injection, and holds a fuel rail pressure at 1800 psi kind of like a diesel just not as extreme. I have 9.5:1 compression.

I want to run 400WHP Daily driver but this engine runs on 93 octane pump gas and I am spraying a 7 Gallon per hour nozzle of 50% Methanol and 50% Water into my intercooler piping about 16 inches before my throttle body.

My EGT reads about 1200 F at WOT and i run about 11.6-11.9 AFR. The turbo is flowing about 350 Grams/second of air. at 22PSI at 6k rpm. I am getting some engine knock and am very concerned about tuning the timing higher and not catching damage to the engine. I want to beat on it every day as safely as i can and i have a fully built motor so between the 93 octane gas with spraying methanol it should be enough but I don't feel it is and i do not want to spray more its terribly difficult to introduce the extra mixture of fuel into the intake tract and i cannot program the ECU to read it, it can only compensate.

The MAIN Question: E85 is NOT available around me, 99.9% methanol is available. 106 octane is available but costs way too much for daily driver. Should i just start putting Methonal in my gas tank with the 93 octane because i cant buy E85 ? what other options are there. I want to go up to 26-28 PSI and I want a more solid solution then trying to spray so much alcohol.

And What AFR Would be good for this application

*(please remember I am direct injected and my AFR runs a tad higher then the conventional port/intake manifold injections that have time to atomize pre cylinders and dont require so much fuel pressure, and have more time to spray)

 

[Nitr0EngiEx]

my exhaust is fully catless its all 3" from turbo back to end of car with a borla muffler that has no restriction.

So what does leaded mean for gas ? and how high will this raise my octane by mixing it, will it be better then buying 106 octane race fuel from sonoco ?

i always leaded meant it would damage internals of the engine.

 

[evelrod]

Sunoco, VP, Rocket...whatever. They are all in the 106-110 range and vary mostly by the means they are measured. At ~$8/gal for VP leaded 110 that I use, it would seem to me much the simplest solution to further power gains. I equate this controversy to the old guy that lived near me and his new Rolls Royce. He could afford the car, the insurance, the gas guzzler tax and all but, simply could not bring himself to do other than "self service regular"!!!

Do yourself a favor and just go buy a few hundred dollars of dedicated race fuel before you break one or more multi thousand dollar bits and pieces. Advice from one who has BTDT all too many times in the search of 'savings'. The project looks like just that, a project. No one in his right mind drives a machine as you are building on the street.....Well, almost no one, mea culpa!!!

Rod

 

[Nitr0EngiEx]

to answer the question about my oem ECU, I am using a software that allows full table editing of the factory ecu all tables, timing, fuel, boost, Load, even the speed limiters, i calibrated a bigger Mass air flow housing with it and a bigger MAP sensor to read the hgher boost i am running.

I change the charts then the device flashes the entire ecu with the new parameters and is also used to turn of all the Check engine lights from my mods. the only thing i cant do is tell it I am spraying additional fuel, i have to depend on AFR self correction to compensate for the extra fuel.

 

[thruthefence]

"So what does leaded mean for gas ?"

Geeze, I AM getting old!

Maybe this should be in "Engineering History"?

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/ethylwar/

Some interesting reading here.

There are some who would say the "Battle of Britain" (that was in WW II )was actually won by the Ethyl Corporation; climb performance by the defending British aircraft being much improved by the exotic 115/145 octane "super Gasoline".

 

[Nitr0EngiEx]

hell i just looked at that 100ll site and that gas at 7 something a gallon is only 50 cents more then im paying for methanol. so if i add like 3 gallons of this to 12 gallons of 93 octane what kind of shape will i be in.

 

[evelrod]

I'm sorry, but I'm beginning to lose interest in this thread. Simply put, combining unleaded fuels of varying octane rating (given they are all derived by the same method) is simple math.
However, by adding even a smallish amt of 'lead' (leaded racing fuel)you can arrive at octane numbers greater than simple average. Considerably more in some cases.

Worried about contact with the lead in 'leaded fuels'? I'm too old to even consider that but perhaps you are not. I'll admit it is a genuine concern these days, but I'm kinda old and have washed thousands of parts in leaded fuels since the 1940's(besides casting thousands of rounds of lead bullets) and, at least so far, I don't seem to suffer any permanent health problems.

Sorry, I don't get your reluctance to buy the correct octane fuel at eight bucks a gallon when you have invested tens of thousands of dollars in the project. Go buy a used Prius and use the money you save on fuel to buy race gas.

Rod

 

[Nitr0EngiEx]

lol you are taking it the wrong way i dont know about the available fuels honestly i dont and i am not giving a darn about my personal health and lead i was conerned about the MOTOR and lead, i dont know what if any effects are on the engine, since i was young i see unleaded fuel on every pump out there i always assumed there was a reason for removing it ?

Once i find the most efficient and cost efficient way to achieve what i want i will do it, and if the answer is running pure 106 sonoco i dont care lol i just need to find my options.

So lol dont blow a lid over my questions, i just also noted the aircraft fuel is cheaper then the sonoco gas and also only a bit mroe then methanol its right in the range im already paying ... but ill just be using more it of it more often oh well ? i can switch tunes for real racing.

 

[patprimmer]

Lead in fuel will not hurt your engine, in fact it helps some parts. One problem with introducing unleaded fuel was to prevent engine wear and premature failure.

Lead from the fuel will coat things inside the chamber, piston tops and ports and will wash through for some time afterward, hence my warning about passing emissions.

If it where not for catalytic converters being poisoned by lead I think we would still be using it. I know it's toxic, but so are the substitutes.

Mixing leaded and unleaded fuel is a guessing game as different components that may be used in fuel have different reactions to the addition of lead. You will never know the exact composition of any fuel you buy, or if it changed from last time. The specs for fuel are performance based not formulation based.

as you have no catalytic converter and by the sound of it are unlikely to ever retrofit just buy the 110 octane or do risky experiments at your own peril.

I like Rod and maybe yourself are stark raving mad when it comes to the pursuit of power, even in a DD.

Regards
Pat
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[thruthefence]

"exotic 115/145 octane "super Gasoline" was of course an error.

It should read 130/145 octane.

AND IT'S PURPLE! Probably run 100 "hg MAP with this stuff.

Thruthefence regrets the error.

 

[patprimmer]

I ran my race boat on purple 130/145 av gas back in the day when we where allowed to buy it.

Regards
Pat
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[Nitr0EngiEx]

Pat you said

"Mixing leaded and unleaded fuel is a guessing game as different components that may be used in fuel have different reactions to the addition of lead. You will never know the exact composition of any fuel you buy, or if it changed from last time. The specs for fuel are performance based not formulation based."

are you trying to say the blend will variate too much and its not worth trying and wont be effective ? or if you do try to mix there is a process to test to see if its good or needs more of one thing or the other.

 

[evelrod]

Once a long time ago I was a guest at a test lab for Chevron. They were doing tests on additives and different formulations of race fuels. (incidentally, all were 'clear', with color added later) One of the tests I was interested was the "mixing of different grades" and testing them on a little one cylinder engine/dyno.

From what I saw, I am convinced that if you are not a chemical engineer employed in the race fuel industry, just stick to buying the 'off the shelf' race gas. I did some combination of unleaded premium and leaded regular when I could no longer get proper high octane fuel for my street rods late 70's early 80's. I followed what I had read in the auto mags and, yes, it really did seem to work. A little leaded mixed in with a tank of premium made for an octane sufficient to keep the little beastie from pinking and knocking under heavy acceleration. Keep in mind that was for STREET and in no way would I subject one of my $50,000 race engines to such fuel. Any engine I build for common usage today must be able to run on 89 octane regular and our race engines are fed 110 VP.

Here is a little thought that perhaps most folks don't take into consideration when it comes to cost in racing.....For a weekend at Laguna Seca as example...

Tow vehicle fuel---$640
Race fuel two day race---$110 to $160
Tires---$400 to $800
Lubricants (Red Line Racing)---~$110
Wear and tear, especially on the old man---Priceless.
Entry fees, food for crew, etc.---All for just an amateur, vintage race weekend. Double all this if we take both cars. Trust me, this IS bucks down racing...The 'big boys' would laugh at such numbers.

Hey, it's up to you. Make some short video, post to YouTube and, give us the link---especially if you get 500rwhp!!!!! I may be losing interest in this thread but NEVER in the subject matter. Get on with it and then tell us what YOU have observed.

Rod

 

[Nitr0EngiEx]

I am buying 2.5" fire hose for my intercooler piping which is 2 1/4 gonna sleeve the pipes for insulation. I tuned the timing better and running 22 psi fine with spraying 50/50 meth/water. I will later tune for 26 or 28 psi and then i will use pure race gas along with the methanol.

I will go dyno next weekend after another week of tuning, I am talking with a professional who makes the tuning device via email and he is drastically improving my tuning for me and has helped more than anyone. he himself happens to own the same car so it helps alot enthus wise.

With similar mods and boost levels people with my car are making around 400 so i should expect at least that much.

 

[Lou Scannon]

well, don't be too disappointed if you don't reach your goal on the first attempt, but it sounds like you're on the right track.

I forgot what I was going to say

 

[patprimmer]

What I am saying is that if you take each individual component that might be used in a fuel, measure it's octane rating on the test engine Rod mentions, then add lead to each and remeasure, some will dramatically improve octane, some won't change at all. Fuel formulations are not fixed. They change the make up at will depending on price and availability and even expected weather in the target market.

Mixing fuels is a guessing game. Probably 99 times out of 100 you can guess right, and people publish magazine articles on ONE test.

1 in 100 you guess wrong and blow an engine. Is it worth it.



Regards
Pat
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[MikeHalloran]

Fire hose is intended for carrying water. It may not behave nicely carrying hot pressurized air, especially with solvents added.

You might have better luck with 'blue stripe' marine exhaust hose. The variant without the wire spiral will even flex a little.

If that doesn't work out, you can progress to blue silicone marine exhaust hose, but be careful to check the limiting pressure; it comes in several wall thicknesses.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[patprimmer]

Why not just use metal tube with a flexible section of reinforced silicone rubber charge pipe hose specifically designed for the purpose like everyone else does. Speed shops are full of the stuff.

Regards
Pat
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[Lou Scannon]

What Pat said. A good online source is airflowonline.com
There is another online shop based in Colorado that has good prices. I forget the name, but if you search on turboford.org it should come up. My recommendations are based on shipping to the US. If overseas, you should able to find a good source closer to your location.

I forgot what I was going to say

 

[patprimmer]

Without mt bothering to do the search of the individual sites

http://www.summitracing.com

http://www.jegs.com

http://www.importperformanceparts.net

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com

Regards
Pat
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[thruthefence]

How about this rig?

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_1105_leaf_blower_supercharger/photo_09.html