Home Depot System Design

[rrewis]

Has anyone had any experience with the design of a sprinkler system in a Home Depot? Specifically the wood racks area. NFPA13 2007 shys away from any suggestions. Annex C leaves one to believe that water systems, even with in-rack sprinklers, cannot control a fire.

Thanks,
rrewis

 

[TravisMack]

rrewis:

I thought the Home Depots were designed by TVA or their subsidiary of Fire Materials Group. You may be able to contact a TVA office in your area about how they have dealt with them in the past.

Travis

 

[rrewis]

Thanks Travis, but what is TVA?

russell

 

[TravisMack]

Sorry. TVA is a national (maybe even interational by now) consulting firm. I believe the full name is TVA Fire and Life Safety. They are a subsidiary of the Telgian Group.

TVA does some of the Wal Mart & Sam's Clubs as well.

Based on how helpful the consultants are with Sam's / Wal Mart (ha ha) I don't know if they would be willing to help or not, but it may be worth a shot.

 

[rrewis]

Okay, I see. Yeah, some people don't like to share for free, but sometimes you can get connected to the right person. I'll try my luck and see who I get.
Thanks for the info,
russell

 

[stookeyfpe]

Rrewis:

I've been there and done that with a number of Home Depots and big boxes. FMG is big on Central EC-25 sprinklers and Home Depot loves using slatted fixtures. If you have any questions let us know and welcome to our group.

Travis, Telgian is TVAs old name. I've known the guy who was "T" and the "V" for over 25 years (the "A" was associates) and I don't know how times they wanted me to work for them. If you want the history I'll let you know.

 

[rrewis]

Stookeyfpe, thanks for the welcome and the response to my post.
The area in the store I'm interested in is the wood products section where there are the cantilevered racks which hold the 2x's, siding, plywood, etc. I am putting them in the solid shelf catagory because the material on them create solid "shelves". The two ec-25 sprinklers I checked out are not listed to be used in a situation involving solid shelving. According to their data, they are to be used with the area/density method of NFPA13 and NFPA13 does not give area/density data for solid shelving that I can find. Annex C discusses fire test with different sprinkler arrangements and they all failed.
Can you describe the design data you used in your systems protecting these stores?

Russell

 

[TravisMack]

There are some special criteria for EC 25 sprinklers that are basically based on the retail stores in NFPA 13. I don't have the exact section right now, but it is under the special design considerations.

That may give some insight.

 

[cdafd]

are you the ahj or sprinkler company???

what state are you in

 

[rrewis]

Yes Travis, NFPA13 2007 chapter 20.3 is the area in there that addresses the siuation and that would do the trick as long as some adjustments are made to the storage configuration the owner is using.

cdafd, I'm the sprinkler contractor in Georgia. The project is a design/build with no engineer involved at this time; however, it looks as though that is going to change. It is turning out to be too big of a responsibily for me to take on I feel.

 

[cdafd]

normaly the design is already set and given to the sprinkler contrac by hd and it is a matter if the ahj will accept it.

I did have a contact with their consulatant but can not find his card, will look next week and if I find i send you a message.


It is nice to see a sprinkler contrac questioning the design.

 

[rrewis]

That would be great. The insurance company for the project is my next contact. I have e-mailed the area representative for TVA as Travis suggested, but he is out of the country at the time.
As for questioning the design, well, as a small child I was one of those irritating kids that always followed everything someone said with "why?".

 

[stookeyfpe]

When I was an AHJ I was called a "nazi" when it came to gondola racks. The problem with gondola racks is their large surface area. As far as I am concerned they are solid shelves and you are correct in your analysis that the EC-25 will not work.

In a manuscript I just finished and will be published early next year on the subject of High Piled Storage, I wrote the following on cantilever racks:

A type of storage rack whose use is increasing is the cantilever or gondola rack. These are cantilevered structures that are designed to support long, bulky items such as dimensional sheet lumber, rolled carpet, furniture, pipe or tubing or textiles. Gondola racks do not have upright columns that face the aisle. NFPA 13 currently does not have any specific requirements for the protection of these racks. The primary concern with this type of storage rack is they can create large shielded areas that limit or prohibit the penetration of sprinkler water. Depending on the total area that is shielded and the degree of obstruction to water penetrations, storage in gondola racks may need to be treated as solid shelves, which would require the installation of in-rack sprinkler protection.

I know that Home Depot is now extending in-rack sprinklers when the cantilever rack contains Group A plastics. But in all of the other stores I've seen (and I usually go into one big box store any time I travel just to see what I find) none of them have in-rack sprinklers.

 

[cdafd]

would stick with TVA and they have plenty of reps in the us they can send you to for your question.

one thought is what ignition sources are in the area of the lumber storage, and if there is one if you have a pile of lumber what is the likely hood that it will catch on fire and continue to burn in the manner it is stored.

also look at the obstrucion rules for the head used and look at the depth of the pile is it over four feet or what ever the obstruction rule is for the head.

 

[LCREP]

"one thought is what ignition sources are in the area of the lumber storage, and if there is one if you have a pile of lumber what is the likely hood that it will catch on fire and continue to burn in the manner it is stored."

Oh man do not go down that road, unless your crystal ball is real good and you can predict when and where the fire will start. All it takes is some nut with a lighter and you will have one uncontrolled fire. Private warehouses are bad enough now we invite the general public, and all the nuts that we have living with us to a building with a huge fire load, it is a wonder more of these big box stores do not burn more often.

I use the NFPA 13 solid shelving rule,< then 20 sq. ft , not required, 20-64 sq. ft 1 level on in-rack sprinklers, more then 64 sq. ft. in racks sprinklers required at all levels. Most I see are greater then 64 sq. ft.,and yes I do not see in-racks at all. Only place I see in-racks in Big Box stores are the paint isles, that is before the store manager gets the bright idea to move the paint to a different aisle, and of course the in-racks are never moved.

Really makes you wonder what the TVA guys are doing since I usually see tons of ESFR obstructions too. When I look at these buildings I just tell the underwriter just figure it as a nonsprinkered building, since 6 months after the store opens nothing is the same place and between the banners, new lighting and everything else I see, the fie protection systems have little hope in controlling a fire.

I am usually very popular with our underwriting folks. But then again I have my profit sharing to think about and the many shares of stock I own with the company. These young kids are with us for a few years and move on and can care less what they put on the books. I really piss then off when I evaluate the fire protection unacceptable, then it has to get kicked up to a higher level, which means they can not write the business the way they wanted and have to follow the book. Oh the insurance works so much fun.

 

[GrandmarkFP]

My suggestion is to use ESFR protection. (12) K25s at 15psi (12) or 12 - K14 at 50psi. This way you are protection not just the wood storage commodity but also the Class IV and the potential for plastics that may be introduced at a later time.

By the way “rrewis” is that Russell.

 

[stookeyfpe]

ESFR? Are you smoking crack? Another mechanical engineer playing the role of fire protection engineer.

Let me help. Read NFPA 13, Section 12.3.2.5.1., 2002 edition. If you can figure that one out and ensure that the design is compliant, then your the ultimate FP man.

Feeling happy enough to slap a seal on the design grandmark?

 

[rrewis]

Yes, it is Russell. Have we crossed paths at some time?

 

[firepe]

Aw Stookey,

don't you know that ESFR is the answer to everything??? (tounge-in-cheek).

I agree with you. These consulting/specifying engineering firms that claim fire protection as one of their areas of expertise should be careful. Also, many times, the fire protection portion of the specs from these types of firms are not even done by an engineer, any engineer, regardless of area of expertise, and only signed off by an engineer, who likely knows very little about what he/she just signed off on.

And my comments to rrewis.....

I also commend you for questioning the design, however, you say this is a design build project.

To me, design build means that each individual contractor brings the "Engineering" to the project for their trade.

Are you an engineer, or your firm an engineering firm? It sounds as if you are not, as you have aluded to getting one involved.

I would have thought that you should have one on staff or under contract to have been able to bid/participate in this design/build project to begin with.

Just my two pennies worth.

 

[rrewis]

firepe, no we do have an engineer in-house; however, we do have one on call when needed. Design-build in our area is when owners or contractors put the responsiblilty for a proper sprinkler system on the sprinkler contractor's certificate and licence. The only approval needed in most cases is the owners insurance company and local ahj whom more times than not has already worked with the sprk. contractor previously and developed a relationship. The ahj usually is not as knowlegeable as the sprk. contractor so he too relies on him to see that all is done correctly. What is comes down to is that the sprk. contractor puts his certification and license on the line (in comes that insurance we pay for). Generally these projects are well within the range of expertise of the sprk. contractor, but now and then one comes along such as the project we are discussing, that the sprk. contractor had best back away from taking on that resposibility. I may have misled the forum, this project is not a Home Depot but rather a manufacturing plant which stores raw wood materials the same as the cantilever racks in a Home Depot store.

Thanks for all the input,
Russell