How can I be taken seriously? 3

[acfreema]

Long story short, I am 30, have a BA in philosophy and AAS in business, and no time to spend earning _another_ degree just to appease HR. For much of the last seven years, I've worked in IT, and devised a bunch of answers to problems because there were no practical commercial solutions or they weren't in the budget.

Now, for nearly the last year, I've been working in software testing at a major international equipment design and manufacturing company. With my degree, I don't see myself getting anywhere near $50k/year at this place in less than 10 years, but only because it's not on management's list of "valuable" subjects. Case in point: one of the embedded software engineers has an undergrad in math, was an intern for his senior year, and was hired on right after graduation last spring or the year before (ie no "real-world" programming experience).

Essentially, my question is "How can I be taken seriously as a person capable of doing what needs to be done?". How do I convince HR and management that I am a valuable asset capable of being more than just the most effective software tester they have? Is a degree mill like Ashwood University the answer?

 

[cvg]

Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg all dropped out of college and went on to start successful, profitable companies.

you need to start your own business...

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Change companies??

 

[JohnRBaker]

Perhaps "starting your own company" may not be practical but you might accomplish the same effect by trying to get a job at a different company. That way you can use your resume to provide a basis for demonstrating that you can do the job for which you feel you should be paid. When you hired into your current company all you had was your degrees but not yet the skills and experience that you have now gained, so unless you can get your current management to see how your value to the company has increased, then your best bet might be to offer those valuable skills to someone else who will not be tainted by the memory of what you were like when they first hired you.

While I've personally never had this problem I did on two occasions hire people into the organization I was managing at the time who were in this exact situation. One was a guy with a degree in 'city planning' who had worked several years for a park service and them chucked it all and went to work for a die shop and worked his way up to doing most of their NX programming but never got the pay he felt he was worth. I hired him as an NC instructor and demo consultant and he was great at the job despite having a degree totally at odds with his then career goals.

The second case was even more interesting as it was a gal who started out working as a typist at this company right out of high school with no degree whatsoever. When they upgraded there office to using a word processing system (this was back in the mid-80's) she was trained on it but because she showed an aptitude she learned not only how to use the system but became the de facto 'system manager' taking responsibility for maintaining the hardware, updating the software, troubleshooting the system and even helping the other people in the office use the system. However, her boss still saw her as a 'typist' with only a HS diploma. We had an opening for a full-time system manager for our CAD/CAM demonstration and training systems in our office (this was when I was running our Detroit technical support center) and I hired her for the job, not based on her 'typing skills' but because she knew what it took to maintain computers and troubleshoot software installations and the like. Granted, she had to take some classes to cover the particular hardware and OS's that we were using but the basic understanding was already there. Overnight she almost doubled her salary.

Anyway, it's something to think about.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[IRstuff]

"you need to start your own business..."

For every Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg, there are hundreds or thousands of wannabees. Digital Research was a largish companies at the time, until, Gates convinced IBM and others to go with DOS instead of CPM. Now, it's essentially nonexistent.

TTFN
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[zdas04]

My undergraduate degree is in Industrial Management--comes from the school of business, but had the same courses and the same hours as an Industrial Engineer. I got hired by a major Oil Company as an "analyst". Starting salary half of what Engineers were hired at, career path that topped off just past the cutoff for food stamps etc. I got amazingly lucky and started work for a guy that said "you are getting paid what??? Every minute that you are thinking about how we're screwing you on your salary is a minute that you're not thinking about work.". Then he reclassified me to the Engineering track and more than doubled my pay. Same guy doing the same work. Great boss who understood how to get the most out of human capital.

People like that are exceedingly rare, but they do exist. If you don't work for one of them, then you are down to two choices: (1) stop thinking about what others are making and do the best job you can; or (2) find a new home for enough money that your new boss will value you.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[bigTomHanks]

There are a lot of good companies out there that will hire and pay you based on your work experience no matter what you studied. The key is to take your experience, create a resume/portfolio and sell yourself based on your experiences/skills. Reach out to those you have worked with who have moved to other companies and ask them if they many be able to bring you on where they are, at the title/pay you deserve. I work with many who have worked their way up to engineers without any formal engineering education.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Software test demands a very special skill set, no element of which is taught in engineering schools of any discipline, so presence or absence of a degree is moot. Being able to program may or may not be a disadvantage, but it's probably not an advantage for test.

The job requires you to follow a test plan that may be mind-numbingly complex and repetitive, to the letter, and to observe and record exactly what actually happened, not what you think might have happened.

Sometimes you participate in writing the test plan, sometimes you participate in figuring out what the results might mean, but mostly you plan your work and work your plan and document that you worked your plan and keep track of the documents for when the peanut butter hits the fan.

The self-discipline required to do it properly is tremendous.

I personally am bored by repetition into active catatonia, so I might not notice a significant anomaly.
example:
When the CaddZZilla issue of Hot Rod came out, I spent a solid hour studying the photographs. When I reluctantly let go of his mag, my friend Ted asked me about the girls. I said, "girls?" Half a dozen of the glamor shots of the car had models draped over it. Not your average model slash hooker either; real world class fashion model types. I didn't even see the girls; just looked right through them. A good software tester would have noticed them, at least after a few minutes.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

"girls?"

That's called novelty blindness, consistent with the video with the invisible gorilla. That's not necessarily indicative of anything else.

TTFN
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[acfreema]

I appreciate the feedback; it's interesting to get a cross-section of ideas from others on this board. The "find another employer" is probably my best and most likely answer. Following up on someone who left isn't likely, because this place takes good care of its employees. My problem here is that I'm not an employee, just a temp (even though it's a three year assignment). There is a guy in my team who was recently promoted to a senior software engineer without any degree, but that was after ~20 years in this particular sect of the industry, 10 of those years spent at this company performing at the top of his classification (Technician III). Why is that ridiculous? He developed the automated testing software and a proprietary language for it as a Technician III. Management considered creating a Technician IV classification for him, most likely to preserve the integrity of "engineer".

My wife's mother has been working as a safety and/or reliability engineer for 10+ years without any college, and her suggestion has been to highlight my abilities and accomplishments, whether they were with an established employer or free-lance (since I do the occasional painting or IT gig). This seems like a great idea, and I have tried it, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how to relate some of my skills to lay-people. Can anyone offer some suggestions for that?

 

[MikeHalloran]

I so hate it when people omit relevant facts.
Being a temp is a relevant fact.
You will be blackballed by the temp agency if you leave voluntarily before the term of your contract is up.
You may be able to negotiate a higher rate (through/with your agency), given your relevant experience, or the customer may decide to keep you at the same rate, or to discharge you for annoying them.

Some companies treat temps as equals, so it's hard to tell the temps from the directs without asking, and some companies treat temps as serfs. Most are somewhere in between. When your contract is up, you may be able to go direct with the same company. ... but their behavior toward you, good or bad, will probably not change.


As for communicating your job skills to others, read through your daily log. If you're not keeping one, you should be. Just list what particular skills you needed to get through each day's problems, and work from there.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[acfreema]

Being a temp may be a relevant fact, but hardly pertinent to the discussion at large: How can I be taken seriously when applying for a position that doesn't coincide with my educational background?

Historically, I have usually been _the best_ employee in a given role, even handling other duties that bottleneck my position. If there is one thing that I do well, it's make myself the best at whatever I'm doing. What has being the best meant? It means all of the work that needs to be done gets done faster and better, and they couldn't possibly replace me. As I've noticed over the years, it's a double-edged sword. When the profit-margin on a particular position gets increased by 50+%, the incentive to take away that gain is reduced.

"Why should we increase your pay when you do this much work for less?"
This is one of the reasons I asked about explaining why my skills are an asset to the people who don't think in numbers.

How does one talk to HR or management in a positive way? They don't (seem to) understand numbers, only "qualifications" and some amorphous quality that makes _them_ feel good, but doesn't fill the position with a person capable of doing it better than any other applicant.

 

[TheTick]

You have been working in IT for seven years. Maybe you haven't gone back to college, but have you done anything else? Any certifications or other training?

Sounds like you stumbled into IT, and now you want to stumble into something else.

 

[acfreema]

Without boring you with my life story, I had little interest in coding, so I steered away from a computer science degree. At the time, I had notions of going to law school (one factor that encouraged philosophy), but others who were finishing their JDs when I was finishing my BA expressed fear of finding work after graduating from top 20 schools. Instead of spending another $100k and three years of poverty, I stayed with what I knew. My employer closed local shop, I stayed... and here I am.

I don't have any certifications because (until recently losing a Lockheed Martin job because of a stupid A+ certification), certifications hadn't been anything that concerned me. Why would I spend several hundred/thousand dollars just to apply for a job that is exactly what I've done? Further, much of the IT world has decided they want 3+ years coding in addition to anything else. I'm not a developer, and I never will be; my coding abilities consist of trouble-shooting, making and modifying scripts or configurations, and recognizing enough to ask the right people for help. Networking is what I've spent the most time doing, with some support of in-house systems at the places I've worked.

What I find the most frustrating is that, for every position with an actual living wage or decent salary, HR expects new hires to know everything right away. Recruiters don't understand the positions they're trying to fill, so no one wins. Eventually, I just gave up and went to a temp agency... which took three tries before I found a competent one with positions other than "phone support".

In a nutshell, there you have it. I have no delusions of suddenly being promoted a design engineer, and I don't even expect to get hired into a senior network support staff position anytime soon, but I would at least like to figure out how I can impart to the resume screeners that my skills are more important than that stupid piece of parchment.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Okay, I'll try to help.

>>devised a bunch of answers to problems because there were no practical commercial solutions or they weren't in the budget.<<
You need to list the problems and the solutions, explicitly. First just as narratives of any length. Then hone them down to simple declarative sentences as short as possible. At least a few of those belong in your resume.

>>Networking is what I've spent the most time doing, with some support of in-house systems at the places I've worked.<< This also belongs in your resume, with relevant buzzwords included, so HR weenies can match your buzzwords to the ones in their list.

>>Historically, I have usually been _the best_ employee in a given role, even handling other duties that bottleneck my position.<< Even if you can prove it's true, and maybe especially if you can, you need to tone this down. HR weenies are never looking for the best of anything; they're looking for the cheapest labor that can do the job.

>>...and they couldn't possibly replace me.<< It's good to show some self-confidence, but no one is irreplaceable. Don't let a hint of that hubris enter your interactions with HR.


Do you have a really good friend, who e.g. would help you bury a body, and then retain no specific recollection of having done so? Ask that friend to go over your resume, and conduct a mock interview of you. Record the interview, and review the recording together afterward.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

"Long story short, I am 30, have a BA in philosophy and AAS in business, and no time to spend earning _another_ degree just to appease HR."

So, there it is in a nutshell; you can't be taken seriously because you won't put in your dues. You seem to think that just because some stuff you've done, or some experiences you've had, you should be accorded a job that you appear to have zero educational background for. We had to decline to hire someone infinitely more qualified than you, because he had no degree, even though his previous employers recognized his achievements by making him an "engineer." He had 30, repeat 30, years of experience designing innovative electronics, yet, we turned him away. You would be turned away in less than an eyeblink.

One major issue, not necessarily related to you specifically, is that engineers are expected to be able to adapt and take on other responsibilities as required. Without the necessary educational underpinnings, the aforementioned engineer might never be able to do much beyond the niche that he had carved out for himself at his previous job, because he would have zero foundational understanding of the math, physics, or engineering to move beyond his niche.

Let's look at "and no time to spend earning _another_ degree just to appease HR." The fact that you think this is about appeasing HR seem to me that you are where you will always be. " Case in point: one of the embedded software engineers has an undergrad in math, was an intern for his senior year, and was hired on right after graduation last spring or the year before (ie no "real-world" programming experience)." But, he has infinitely more math chops than you have, 10 years after college. That makes him infinitely more valuable as a programmer than you, because if I go to him and ask him to create a Kalman filter, I'd expect him to be able to carry out that task. Can you say the same about yourself?

Your last posting is particularly troubling; you don't want to do coding; you don't want to get an actual degree, you don't want to get certifications, so WTF? Why should anyone hire you to be a software designer? Your denigration of the people trying to hire you is emblematic and speaks volumes about your attitude. Until that changes, you are where you are.

Oh, certifications, in general, are comparable to "degree mill" parchments. Someone came it with a stack of awards and certifications, yet had trouble figuring out what a 15% increase in salary would be in dollars. Passed on hiring that one as an engineer.

TTFN
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[acfreema]

I appreciate the feedback I've gotten, negative and positive. Regardless of what I expect, I try to not ignore input from apparently credible sources.

What I don't appreciate is the inability of some readers and posters to either offer input that is on-topic, rather than remain silent. From a board comprised of people who earn their way through life using facts instead of conjecture, I am disheartened by the replies that come from reading between the lines. There's constructive criticism, and there are incendiary remarks; I'm pretty sure I don't need to clarify.

Given that I don't see much more usefulness coming from this thread, would a moderator please close it?

 

[truckandbus]

Start collecting certifications and course credits supported by your current employer. Eventually these will add up and you will have the credentials to backup your work experience. The worst professional advice I was given was to not pursue company sponsered training because "you will never need that here"...well there comes a time when either you or the company decide to part ways and you are in competion with those who do have the credentials in addition to the experience

 

[zelgar]

I don't know why I'm going to say this, but "You're expecting a lot of compassion when posting to an Engineering Forum?"

It appears that your background experience does not match with your expectations of a career. Unless you want to spend years working your way up the chain of low-level positions demonstrating to your manager that you're capable of more, you'll need to get experience with your career choice. Getting certifications and/or getting some degree in the CS area may be the fastest way of achieving your goal if it's to be in the computer fields. Also, some companies will not consider even looking at a resume unless the applicant can demonstrate that they have the background skills necessary for the position.

The fact that you're currently employeed as a temp makes your situation even worse than if you were hired on by the company. The company has no incentive of putting money into you to get you trained in additional skills, especially if you're a new hire or at the beginning of a long-term contract. Many companies will not consider hiring on temps until the end of the contract due to penalties or additional cost to hire on the temps with the temporary agency. If you're in this situation, the best you can hope for is to see if there's any free or reduced cost training available while working there that will get you certified or more "valuable" with the company.

Finally, you seemed to have difficulty why "Management considered creating a Technician IV classification for him, most likely to preserve the integrity of "engineer"." As a civil engineer, I dislike having the word "engineer" tacked onto positions that don't have anything related to engineering (e.g., calling a trash man a sanitation engineer; a computer programmer a software engineer). If you're working at a company that is providing Engineering services or employs a lot of engineers, this may be why they are preserving the integrity of the title "engineer".

 

[acfreema]

I didn't start this thread seeking compassion, it was with the hope of getting feedback about how I can make myself more attractive as an intelligent and skilled asset without spending another two or three years getting another degree.

The reason I never pursued any certifications is because the cost of the certifications far outweighed the perceived benefits of them (given my years of experience, this seemed even more the case). In hindsight, I should have gotten a CCIE or at least a CCNA and perhaps MCSE instead of wasting $50k in tuition on a BA. Right now, the problem I seem to have is that of getting type-cast into "not technically capable" positions when I have clearly demonstrated capability.

I completely agree with the misapplication of titles in contemporary, politically correct America. When I said "preserve the integrity of engineer", I meant with regard to thinking "This is a small sub-sect that requires at least a BS in _____.", instead of "This person is a strong asset, and we want to make sure he doesn't leave, regardless of his credentials.". It's this way of thinking that hinders so many solutions. Having a degree in $technical_field does not make you an engineer, it only means you have a degree in that field. Exhibited skills are a much better indicator of abilities than an arbitrary label that one wears. Which elucidates the reasoning behind my original question: How can I be taken seriously?

Don't misunderstand, I am grateful for a variety of new views. It's far more useful than being told "You'll find something.".