How do you tell your boss he's wrong without making it sound that way? 2

[casseopeia]

I did some destructive testing on a building and found some non-conforming construction. There were no weep holes or base flashing at the bottom of a brick veneer exterior wall. The California Building Code (based on UBC) clearly states that weep holes and base flashing are to be installed at the first course of masonry above grade. The seller’s expert didn’t catch it although they were looking at the same opening I was. All I know about the other consultant is that he graduated from Dominican in San Rafael, CA, a liberal arts school. I have friends who went to Dominican, but they have degrees in family therapy, nursing and ballet, not engineering or architecture since the school has no curriculum for those degrees.

The seller’s consultant threw a hissy fit about the flashing issue with my boss on a conference call when I was not present. My boss caved during a conference call, then called to try to convince me to change my report and say that it is acceptable construction. I said as a licensed architect, could not ethically say something that is in direct violation of the building code is OK without a written variance from the building official having jurisdiction.

I am to meet all the parties at the site on Monday morning. My boss said that when I see what they are talking about, I will change my mind and kind of implied my continued employment was at stake. He said he wants the purchaser to buy the building so that the firm gets the remediation work where he can recoup some lost fee. I told him it was not my mind that needed changing. They need to run it by the building official. My quandary is that I am reluctant to openly challenge my boss in front of the other consultant and his Client, the mayor of the city that owns the building. I’m just not sure what more I can say, except ask the other consultant if he could do a lovely pirouette for me.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[rowingengineer]

At the risk of bitting off more than I can chew with Hokie and yourself, I would like to point out that weep holes while required by many codes, there are alternative solutions that are just as justifiable, if a certain situation is present.

In some areas of the world, the brick mason will drain the wall cavity to the foundation's concrete blocks, which then drains to the foundation's interior drainage system. This is recommended practice when dealing with salt attack and rising damp issues; with these systems it is often necessary to have an active water management system. If you have a suspended timber internal floor, you now have breeze blocks and no weep holes. There are of course move situations than I mention, aka party walls, port buildings, flood areas, carports ect.

In my opinion if the building is not experiencing high moisture levels at the outside walls and there are no signs of water entry to the underside, top and ends of the floor system, there is no need to fix a problem that does not exist.

While the subject of weep holes would be highlighted in my report I would also mention the mitigating circumstances, thus not condemning the building on an issue that could be a non-issue. This would particularly be the case if the environment of the city was one that didn’t have high moisture contents in the air.

However while all these technical issues could or could not be present, I still think there is a problem with the bosses actions and also the possible situation.


ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[casseopeia]

I opened up the veneer walls and there was no indication that there is a designed water management system. The building paper stops at the bottom of the OSB sheathing, the brick veneer continues down 2-3 courses and is supported by 4” CMU that is set on the footing. I suppose one could argue that the water that flows down the building paper and fills the space between the CMU and cast-in-place concrete stem wall where it eventually seeps through holes and cracks in the concrete block and is absorbed into the ground. The question is, do you want to be the licensed professional that says that this is OK, in opposition to historical convention and every industry and technical resource? I’d also be cautious when using the ‘no damage has occurred yet’ argument because there are plenty of examples of similar conditions that eventually cause damage. It’s like trying to argue against putting in fire sprinklers where required because the building has not burned down yet.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[MikeHalloran]

"She ain't blowed up yet." should be called the NASA defense.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Ron]

Geez, Cass...this is a wood frame building with no through-wall flashing and weepholes? Did you see and wood rot?

 

[TheTick]

Whatever else, you and boss need to be on same page before sitting with client. Do NOT put him on the spot, even if you are right. That sort of thing can haunt a career for years.

If you can't agree beforehand, don't be there.

 

[jmw]

PS:
The Yes minister method for influencing decisions is quoted here:

Sir Humphrey: There are four words you have to work into a proposal if you want a Minister to accept it.
Sir Frank: Quick, simple, popular, cheap. And equally there are four words to be included in a proposal if you want it thrown out.
Sir Humphrey: Complicated, lengthy, expensive, controversial. And if you want to be really sure that the Minister doesn't accept it you must say the decision is courageous.
Bernard: And that's worse than controversial?
Sir Humphrey: (laughs) Controversial only means this will lose you votes, courageous means this will lose you the election.

This is from the episode "The Right to know" which can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yes+minister+the+right+to+know&aq=f

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[casseopeia]

Ron, places where I opened up the stucco, the OSB sheathing was entirely gone and decay starting on the framing. I pulled out the decayed OSB with my gloved hand, no tools required, and it's only a 5-6 yo building.



"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[hokie66]

Case made. You are right. Your boss and the seller's inspector are wrong. The buyer now has a choice...buy a building needing expensive repairs, or pass.

 

[rowingengineer]

Agree with Hokie here, looks like you have all your ducks in a row.

In response to your question above, if no damage was present I would have recommended an inspection schedule be developed, aka simlar to your fire system, don't need to wet the building all the time just to stop a freak fire.

ANY FOOL CAN DESIGN A STRUCTURE. IT TAKES AN ENGINEER TO DESIGN A CONNECTION.”

 

[Ron]

Cass...suspected same...seen it many times. Go kick some a$$.

 

[csd72]

I think this is one of those things that seems to have been blown out of proportion.

Weep holes are easy to install with the right drill.

By base flashing, I assume this is the same as a damp proof course? If so, then there are liquid injection systems that can achieve the same results without having to remove any bricks (simply drill a few holes with the same drill as above).

 

[Ron]

csd72...for brick veneer, there is a "through-wall" flashing required in addition to waterproofing of the exterior face of the inner wall. The waterproofing sheds the bulk water and condensate, which then collects on the "through-wall" flashing, which in turn directs the water to the weeps.

For stucco, there is a positive weep required at the base of the wall to direct water from the interior water plane (there is no cavity), to the outside.

There are several ways that the intent of a through wall flashing can be accomplished, but injection systems usually don't work well. As for the stucco condition, it is likely there is a flashing breach and the water resistive barrier is improperly lapped. Further, there is usually a lack of proper tie-in with the flashings and water resistive barrier....all leading to structural deterioration and huge expense for remediation. The only reasonable way to remediate such stucco deficiencies is to remove the stucco, repair the damage, restore the barrier and re-apply stucco properly.

 

[beej67]

Anxiously awaiting the finale to this thread.


So here's a side question -

Cass's employer is laying folks off, presumably due to financial constraints, but also gave Cass fairly explicit instructions to violate codes of ethics. If Cass gets laid off next, does Cass have a case against his (her?) employer for wrongful termination?



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[jmw]

Don't think such thoughts, think positive warm huggy happy thoughts about how her boss will see the light and give her a job for life.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[patprimmer]

And Attila the Hun was just a nice gentle family man who was misunderstood.

Seriously I am sad to say, I think the boss here might have an agenda and deliberately hired a vulnerable scape goat. Call me cynical or hard nosed, but I do have some real concerns about this.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[Ron]

Pat...your cynicism is usually well placed...so don't let it drop off. I agree...the boss has something else that isn't apparent...yet.

 

[jmw]

Yes, it seems like.
But I didn't want to be the one to suggest to Cass that her boss might be a bottom feeder.
He could be trying to clean up as much as he can, no questions asked, and then do a canoe-man and hide out in Panama.

(Cass, maybe we all should get together around a drink and discuss you choices in bosses. It certainly does look like this guy is trying to deal from the bottom.)

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[casseopeia]

Although I do not think this is completely over, it looks as if I dodged a bullet for now. Over the weekend there was apparently a whole lot of sabre rattling and grandstanding. I must have been copied on 15-20 emails. The focus of the argument appears to have shifted to the scope of the stucco removal. We have about 75% removal with the suggestion that the purchaser might be better off just to remove it all. The seller’s consultant had all kinds if criticism about my investigation, but was not able to provide any scope of his own.

The meeting was called off for today. The purchaser sent an email to the seller’s consultant suggesting that he (our purchaser) hire the seller’s consultant to do the repair scope drawings that he (the seller’s consultant) suggested. The construction arm of the seller’s consultant’s firm would then repair the building and provide a guarantee for the term our purchaser owned the building. I understood that to be our Client calling the other consultant’s bluff, or throwing down a gauntlet of sorts.

But it appears that is not the case. The purchaser seems to be going this route despite the appearance of conflict of interest, the seller’s consultant working for both the seller and the purchaser. My boss became very suspicious of the whole thing today and gracefully backed out of continuing with the investigation and the design of the repair documents. He suggested to our client that he should hire Dominican Boy, but also recommended getting a third party peer review. Later, my boss tried to convince me that the lack of through wall flashing at the base of the wall is OK, but now that I don’t have to put that in a report, I just nodded my head and told him that i could see his logic. I also praised him for a brave decision to back out of what it turning into a very shady deal.

I attached part of my field sketch of the condition. I am still not convinced that this is a good detail for a masonry cavity wall. But what do I know. Half of my family has only been brick and stone masons for generations. Hopefully I have not yet tarnished myself as a trouble maker.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

I would still contact the ex-accountant.

 

[patprimmer]

CBL

Your even more cynical than me I think, however I do agree. There is smoke so look for fire that is the source

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules