How many hours do you work per week? 31

[curiousmechanical]

Hello All,

I recently spoke with an old college friend and he said that he was working 60 to 70 hours per week. I feel this is way above average, but not unheard of. Anyway, this got me thinking...

I see a lot of salary surveys in trade magazines (Machine Design, Design News, etc.), but they rarely talk about hours worked. In fact, the only time I remember seeing any stats was in a Design News article back in 2008 (see attached). They reported the following:

Average = 49 hours
Median = 46 hours

I think this is important information to have. We need to know what the market trends are in order to know what is expected of us, stay competitive, and make sure we are not taken advantage of.

Would you guys like to trade stats? At the end, I'll work up our numbers.

I'll start us off. I think it would be useful to mention dicipline, region, and company size.

Mechanical Engineer
New Jersey, USA
Average = 45 hrs/week and 3 or 4 Saturdays a year

 

[curiousmechanical]

Zdas04 & Ron,

Thank you very much for your detailed posts!

Zdas04,

I hear the “getting paid for results” comment from time to time and it confuses me. Maybe it depends on what environment you work in. Where I work, there aren’t any live or death situations where something needs to be done at all costs by a certain time. Customers order machines and we design and build them. Schedules are pretty demanding, but we manage. I feel like I’m given work to do and I get it done as fast I can and I do the best job I can. When I’m done, there’s a never ending list of more work to do. There’s no meaning in “work until the job gets done;” it’s never done (or else I’d be out of a job when I’m done!). I feel like most people are pretty smart, come to work, and do a good job. “Results” sounds like something more epic is happening. I don’t see anyone really blowing anyone’s minds around the office. I’m not arguing, I just don’t get it…

I really liked your comments on attitude. That was inspiring. I was recently thinking about how well I have it because of the division of labor. I don’t have to grow my own food, make my own clothes, etc. I get to play on a computer all day and somehow that counts as “doing my part in society.” Pretty good deal…

Ron,

You have lived through a transition in engineering. I am curious and would like to know more. I only know what I see today. How was it different from now? How have engineers ruined it for themselves? If engineers didn’t change on their own, would their environments have forced them to?

I see old photos of engineers wearing suits and lab coats. It looked a more serious profession. Although, those looked like more serious times in general. Maybe it’s society in general…

 

[SNORGY]

In my mind, the only possible fallacy in the posts by zdas04 and Ron is in the assumption that, in a typical employer-employee relationship in the field of engineering, the employer will more often than not value and reward that level of ownership and commitment. My experience is that such is simply not the case, and that is why one has to choose their employer carefully. It is also why I believe that it is just plain stupid to work an inordinately long work week just because someone (i.e. an employer) states that it's what a professional ought to do. I even had one employer in my past tell me that it was wrong to put my marriage ahead of my career when it came to extended field assignments away from my wife, since I hadn't been married long enough for the company to consider my marriage to be as important as that of a more senior person who had been married longer.

Perpetuation of attitudes like that serve to do as much damage to the dignity of our profession as does an employee sticking to his or her guns with respect to a reasonable work week, because such attitudes force us to believe that we deserve no better than this. You either support that mindset, or you do not. I do not. My belief is to the contrary.

Over the course of time, we have driven ourselves as a profession into being forced into maximum effort for minimum reward in order to undercut or outbid our fellow business competitors. We have brought this upon ourselves for entirely the wrong reasons, and what once might have been "working overtime for the sheer pride in what you do" has become "working like a dog for fear of being fired if you don't".

There is nobody to blame but ourselves...the "Corporate Weenies" rule over us because that is what we have set ourselves up for, and we collectively either lack the brains or the courage to change that situation.

Let me state in advance that my stance should not be construed as a lack of commitment to what I do; I work a 50-60 hour week half of the year anyway, taking work home for free, etc., but the minute somebody says "...Thou shall bacause I deem that it is expected..." is when I say "...Osculate With My Gluteus Maximus...".

Life is short. Work honestly and put in a good effort, as opposed to stupidly for no good reason.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[Ron]

CM...thanks for asking. It's a little of both...societal changes and changes in the engineering profession.

I have seen a clear dilution of the stature of engineers. Much of that is our own making, unfortunately. As a societal group, we are somewhat introverted...even though within the group there are a few extroverts. When judged by other extrovert groups, we still pale in comparison!

As a group, we are more often than not agreeable to that which is thrust upon us. As business society has move to a much more profit motive than anything altruistic, the shift to force engineers to a purely hourly purveyance is a concern to the profession. We have quickly become a commodity...engineering services where once only technician services were considered.

We are not technicians. We struggle through a relatively advanced curriculum of science and mathmatics. We then graduate with degrees in engineering and go to work for employers who want to exploit our knowledge and capability....many times those employers are not engineers and have no concept of our obligation to professional ethics and professional advancement. When that happens, we must stand up and tell the employer...NO! "I will not accept this manner of treatment and employment as a professional..goodbye". If you are not willing to do so, then you will be relegated to technician status... It's that simple.

 

[zdas04]

Ron,
I see it a little differently. I always refused to be a victim. When the corporate weenies wanted me to do something that I believed was counter to the best interests of my projects, I would explain the consequences of doing it their way and then say "no". If I was not compelling in my explanation then they had every right to replace (or fire) me. That never happened. I never compromised either my ethics or what I saw as the best interests of my projects, but I was quite prepared to take the consequences of that stance.

CM,
Don't get me wrong. The company that I worked for was run by MBA's and of the 175 engineers that started with the company during the month I started, 3 of us were left on the tenth anniversary. Many of the ones that left went out the door pissed about the hours, pissed about their treatment, pissed at the company. I knew many of them. All of the ones that left because they were mad (as opposed to the huge number who left because they were approached with offers they couldn't refuse) had said at some time "I'm only getting paid for 40 hours, that's what I'm working". They set themselves up as victims of "evil management weenies and their lackeys". Once you perceive yourself as a victim it is easy to rationalize stealing office supplies or spending excessive time playing World of Warcraft on line within your 40 hours, or (the worst sin of all) doing sloppy work.

As to the company not "giving" you projects that you can take ownership of, you are silly if you think anyone will "give" you anything. Let me share an example. When I started, I was the user representative and project manager on computer systems development. One of the systems I was responsible for (for 10 years) was the one we used to capture hydrocarbon reserves data (which encapsulated the value of the company). My predecessor on the system was a stickler for the progam exactly following internal company policies. If the laws changed such that the policies became more restrictive than they needed to be (which happens more often than you'd think), he would have the program modified to address the changed regulations within the confines of the new law (still more strict than was required). When I took over, I reviewed internal policies and federal regulations on my couch after the kids went to bed. I saw that our policy was resulting in our hydrocarbon reserves being undervalued by many tens of billions of dollars. I re-wrote the company policies (on yellow pads at home) and sent the revisions to legal. A month later with legal blessing I implemented a formal policy change and we restated reserves (and the stock price jumped measurably).

This long winded example was intended to show that even though your project may be proscribed to a small box, you don't have to be. Look for policies that hurt the project, look for equipment that is adding costs, look for organizations that hurt the project. Then find ways to nudge changes without looking like a know-it-all wiseass engineer.

I always made it a point to take time to BS with my colleagues about our projects and occasionally I would be able to tell "Bill" that "Bob" had found a cool work-around to a specific problem that Bill was currently having. This project awareness used to be normal and was always beneficial--by 1990 it had become quite rare. Today it is often seen by the clock watchers as butting in. So, I butt in. It is personally rewarding and if the company doesn't reward you for it, it will greatly improve your scope of knowledge.

If you can't find an indirect way to grow your responsibility, write a paper, get involved in an engineering society, offer to teach an internal class. Don't watch the clock.

David

 

[ctopher]

I'm lucky to have a job, and like it.
If I didn't like it, and wanted more pay, I would quit the engineering field and become a union laborer.

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[FeX32]

... or become a Pimp.


Fe

 

[zdas04]

Isn't that what he said?

 

[ctopher]

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP4.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[lacajun]

During a discussion with a headhunter, I stated working conditions, hours worked, % travel, etc. He thought there must have been a lot of turnover in the department. Turnover was almost non-existent. There were divorces, heart attacks, high blood pressure, and fear of being fired. No joke. Some of the men had been married multiple times because women don't marry to spend the rest of their lives minus their man 50-75% of the time or greater.

I think it is foolish to waste your personal time on a job that will take you nowhere. That is what I ran into and did not like it. I know men who did it and got laid off in spite of their efforts. In the meantime, they damaged relations with their wives and kids. Those men have regrets. Is that worth it?

I've worked 45-90 hour weeks for years. I did whatever it took to get the job done and was going nowhere fast. It took me time to realize what was going on because I was so focused on the work. The HR Director finally summed it up for me.

I am single, no kids so it wasn't too hard for me to get caught up in the self-importance of doing a great job for the company. However, when friends began to not invite me to social functions, I began to realize the damage I was doing to me. I lived years away from home working in plants across the country. It's very hard to develop bonds with people doing that. You're always transient. We all need human interaction on a more intimate level than, "Looks like my work yesterday solved the problem."

You know there is a problem when the hotel managers begin inviting you to social functions on weekends.

I regret wasting so much of my personal time on work. Some of that work could have been done more efficiently had other engineers done their jobs correctly. It's hard to hit a target that other engineers cannot even articulate and have no interest in trying. But, I digress......

 

[zdas04]

In August I will have been married 39 years. My lifetime airlines miles on United is over 1 million. Since I've been married I've worked on every continent that people raise families on (never been to Antarctica). I was out of the country for the first 5 Christmases of our married life and the first wedding anniversary that I was home for was number 7. I've had times when I loved my work. I've had times when I hated my work. The family knows instantly which is which. When the kids were little, I came home at a reasonable time (in a car pool that dropped me off at 5:00 every evening unless I was traveling), spent time with the kids, we ate dinner together, they went to bed and I went back to work in my basement office.

It worked for my family mostly because my wife made it work. She is a confident, self-reliant woman who generally sees our family as something that is worth considerable effort. The legions of our friends that have gotten divorced have tended to miss the fact that a relationship takes at least as much work as a career. When I hear stories about "the job killed our marriage" I usually get in trouble because I mention that if either of them had put a significant portion of the effort that they put into their jobs into their relationship, the job might not have been able to do as much damage.

We can continue to be victims of a demanding career or we can accept who we are and set achievable goals for our personal life. Not being a victim has worked for me.

David

 

[moltenmetal]

If you’re given (or more properly “sold”) ownership, then you should work like an owner. By “ownership” here, I mean both the benefits of ownership (i.e. a proper and fair share of the profit) as well as the responsibilities of ownership (i.e. the responsibility and authority to do to your best ability what is in the interest of your company, within your competence).

If you’re given NONE of the benefits of ownership, you’re a salaried employee, and you should work like one. A salary is not the same as indentured servitude: it is not a fixed amount of money for any level of effort and commitment the company can demand from you. Everyone has to establish what level of effort, beyond the bare minimum required by contract, that they can give SUSTAINABILY to their employer. Each person must also determine the circumstances under which they are willing and able to give more than that- and for what compensation.

Don’t assume that going well beyond the call of duty as a salaried employee will lead to a position of ownership in any meaningful sense. In most companies, it absolutely will not, for structural reasons. That’s a polite way of saying that your contribution has been designed to be replaceable- you are a commodity. If you’re attempting to buy goodwill from a boss, are you certain that boss will be there even next year? Storing up your reward in heaven may work with your favourite deity, but it’s poor strategy down here on earth.

Again, we’re not talking about extra time fixing a problem you created, or helping out your colleagues through a rough patch- that indeed is the minimum required of a professional. When this strays into consistent and hence unsustainable over-commitment, especially when this is compelled in the name of professionalism: then we have a problem.

As the Dilbert guy says, any amount of self-sacrifice that you make on behalf of your employer will be accepted. Not likely compensated for in a truly meaningful way, or even acknowledged- or even NOTICED- but it will certainly be accepted!

Services that are given for free in a commercial context understandably tend to be undervalued- by both the person giving and by the one receiving. If volunteering is your kind of thing, I suggest you find a charity.

 

[Ron]

Well said, David.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Well, we're going on 44 years this coming month and I have 3+ million miles with American Airlines and bunch with several other programs and we've made it work.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[graybeach]

I like what David said about ownership. Even though I have no ownership stake in my company, for the most part I feel that I own my projects. I sometimes work a few extra hours but only when absolutely necessary and only because I really care about my projects. If something is going on in the field, and I feel that I need to be there, I'll drive all night if I have to.

Mixing topics, but what about us women who do not have stay-at-home wives to take care of the kids? When mine were small, working much overtime simply was not an option. Not only did my kids suffer from the lack of attention, hiring extra baby sitters cost me real money. No way was I not going to charge any extra hours I had to work.

Even with my aversion to overtime, I still go to be technical lead some great projects. I simply developed the discipline to get done what needed to get done in 40 hours, and to say NO to additional projects when my plate was already full.

No that my kids are grown, I still do not work much over 40 hours. There are too many other fun things to do.

 

[PhilBW]

Being a professional does not mean allowing your employer to exploit you by expecting you to work long hours without extra compensation, unless you agreed to this when you accepted the job.

Being a professional means living up to your part of the agreement you made with your employer when they hired you, and occasionally going above and beyond that agreement to help them through a tight spot.

There is absolutely nothing professional about letting your employer or anyone else take advantage of you time after time and year after year.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I feel like I own several bits of software that I've created. Makes it hard to contemplate leaving, which is kind of sad really. If I did leave, I'd still want my orphans to succeed.

- Steve

 

[FeX32]

"f I did leave, I'd still want my orphans to succeed."




Fe

 

[cksh]

I work about 45 hours. Not counting any late night meetings with overseas counterparts. But those are few.

Occasionally we have to work late to help with a project, but that happens maybe twice a year.

But I don't even like working 45. Between that and drive time it really cuts into family time. But our hours are pretty set. Really miss flex time. It is so much easier coming in early and getting out at 3:30 or 4. 5 o'clock stop times is horrible.

Don't know how I would survive 60 or 70.

 

[KENAT]

It varies.

I like to make sure at least 40 hours of productive hours, usually a bit more since In practice I get some flexibility in schedule. In terms of hours in the office or work at home, a good bit over 40 to make up for time I waste spend on Eng-Tips or in excessively long non work related conversations etc..

I have worked a lot more than 40 hrs at times, and ashamed to say a few times probably a bit less than 40 for one reason or another. Though I'm pretty sure I average well over 40.

I got rated as highly productive or similar this year by my boss, which I find amusing as I'm sure I waste a lot of time for one reason or another.

Some flexibility etc. doesn't seem unreasonable from my understanding of what it means to be salaried, however routinely working a long way over 40 seems questionable.

As to the issue of the changing status of engineers, I wonder which changed first, engineers attitudes toward their employers or the employers attitude to their engineers?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[zdas04]

Greybeach,
I've seen it work when one spouse had a "job" and one had a "career". That is how my wife and I saw it before our oldest was conceived. We had a friend about that time who's husband was a barber and was able to stay home to raise the kids. It was really a lot easier than it seemed at the time. I just can't imagine how hard it must be when both of you have demanding careers. Selfishly glad that I didn't have to solve that one.

David