How much loss of energy between power plant and house? 2

[curtis74]

I'm trying to put together an intelligent argument against the use of household-charged electric vehicles based on several factors including the inefficiency with which electricity is delivered to the home. According to DOE reports, nearly 70% of the US electrical production is still coming from fossil fuels, so that little tidbit combined with how much of that energy actually reaches your house might make a rather persuasive argument.

Can someone help me out with a reference or website that might help me find out how much of the juice produced at the plant makes it to the average home?

 

[Tophinater]

I belive power transmission losses were estimated at just over 7% in the mid 90s and I doubt that would have changed much now.

I have to disagree with some of the numbers listed above:
-Modern Otto IC engines are 27-33% efficient under normal operating conditions.
-The later of most Rankin based power plants operate just under 40% thermal efficieny just for the cycle itself.
-Since when is electricity cheaper than natural gas in the US?

Personally I dont think electric vehicles will ever become mainstream. There is no possible infrastructure that will be capable of supporting them that can be built in the next 15 years and by then Im banking on the hydrogen economy taking over.

 

[QBplanner]

DPC:
I did not say T/L line get low efficient due to the ages.
Grid reinforcement get not much to do with how many elec. Cars plug in .

If one day I receive a bill with $2-5/kwh, I will think about if I have to charge my car or go get Gas.
efficiency get nothing to do with the cost , that is your opinion

 

[tlrols]

Thermal power plants (i.e. Rankine cycle) plants are rated on throughput--i.e. fuel input to electricity output. For example, Colstrip is /was one of the most efficient plants of its type, just around 39% of its energy input is turned into electricity (coal to electricity). Thermal plants have high efficiencies in the furnance and boiler, it is that pesky condensation of steam that kills their efficiencies. Ironically, wind turbines have about the same efficiencies as do thermal plants (no free lunch from Mother Nature it seems).

Electric cars are coming, and becoming more mainstream every day. The fear that the utility I work for has is that at $5 a gallon for gas the electric cars will show up faster than we can plan for. Our load curve will be flat and we will be short on resources. I like the idea of using intermittant resources (i.e. wind) to charge the batteries on an electric car--just need the communications in place to make that work, perhaps a lower rate is needed as well.

Otto cycle engines at 27 to 30% efficiencies? Name one car sold that has that high of an efficiency--I want to buy it! Atkinson cycle and diesels operate there, not Otto cycle engines. That doesn't mean that Otto cycles can't get there--they don't yet however (in mass produced automobiles). Presumably the high cost of liquid fuel will re-kindle the market for fuel efficient automobiles.

Transmission losses are undergoing a slight downward trend--Kelvins Law indicates that lines should be sized based on a forward electricity price, at $100 MW-hr a fat conductor looks like a really good idea.

I think the point here is that electricity is a more efficient way to do business across the board. If it wasn't, then why don't we have gasoline motors in our washing machines, clothes dryers, hair dryers, etc. It is the difficulty in storing electricity (you really can't do it) that keeps electric cars from being more mainstream. Given that most Americans have a commute distance of less than 50 miles (round trip) it seems to me that the time for the electric car has arrived.

 

[cranky108]

There was an idea about using a rail guide on major highways that would allow charging while attached to the rail guide. Sort of like a single rail attachment where you don't have to steer for some distance (30 miles seem like a good number).
The problems there were trying to look at is what happens at the end if the driver was asleep (what happens now if you fall asleep while on cruse control)?

It has some advantages like everyone travels at the same speed (I would assume the speed limit), and cars could travel closer togather (no ones stopping).

 

[roydm]

In response to rmw (Mechanical), Where I come from much of the hot water heating is done by electricity. For at least 40 years the power company have had the ability to turn water heating On and Off with what is called a ripple relay Short pulses of high frequency (200Hz) are superimposed onto the lines. The early relays were mechanical devices tuned to respond to a certain pulse frequency. This allows them to smooth out the generator load with no noticable effect on the consumer. It's for sure they could use the same method for controlling your car charger.
Roy

 

[kamenges]

Interesting discussion.

Aside from the infrastructure question (which is a HUGE point) it still doesn't make economic sense to go electric. You can't recover the extra cost of the vehicle in fuel cost savings...yet. In the US it doesn't even make sense to go Diesel unless you drive a huge amount. And it will be a while before you can. Many parts of the industrialized world have been dealing with high fuel costs for a long time. Yet they haven't firmly embraced electic vehicles, although they have enbraced Diesel.

All references to low-to-mid teen efficiencies for Otto-cycle engines I have seen have been from groups with some interest in making the number look bad. And, no, Wikipedia can't be used as an unverified source. The EPA website shows a losses breakdown. The way they get to high teen efficiencies is by blowwing 10-12% in idle. That may be an issue in LA or Chicago, but it isn't where I live. A conservative 85% of my engine runtime is spent at fixed highway speeds. You can make the very valid point that idle losses aren't a loss with electric vehicles. But you can't make a blanket statement about Otto-cycle efficiency without bringing specific usage into the picture.

Keith

 

[SteveFehr]

There's new battery technology on the way, nano-based litium batteries, that exceed 10x the capacity of standard lithium batteries. If these can be mass-produced at comparable cost to existing lithium batteries, a Prius-sized (and prius-priced) battery would suddenly be an effective PHEV capable of driving 40 miles on a charge.

The problem remains when everyone in the US gets home and plugs in their cars simultanously on a hot afternoon... if we don't have TOD metering rolled out by then, new power plants built and infrastructure upgraded. It won't be spread evenly, but concentrated in residential areas at specific times of the day. I calculated last week (sorry, don't have the numbers handy) that in 10 years time, peak demand in residential areas will literally double unless consumers have incentive to place their cars on timers as opposed to topping off to allow evening trips... And even then, it's going to be such a dramatic increase that the grid will fail.

We'll need a couple hundred new nuclear power plants to keep up with demand as well as upgraded infrastructure, lest we simply trade oil for coal, which is the most likely case. It will be painful for pocos and consumers alike when major residential grid components start exploding and need replaced. The only thing that will save the grid are the tens of thousands of industrial and commercial buildings out there with small diesel generators that will kick on when the frequency wavers and voltage drops and reduce load on the grid go go green!

 

[cranky108]

One question, how can people plug in there car at home if they are at work? Or how can a business stay open if the workers are at home?
Somewhere there is reduction of business load at the same time residential load is growing.
Normally the summer load peaks, and the peaking plants operate, just after 5pm.
And given that plug in power (now) is from a power plug limited to 12 amps X 120 volts = 1440 watts, it's hard to believe such a massive jump that can't be handeled by existing + new peaking plants.
Granted that new peaking plants will need to be built, and currently that is about a 2 year consturction cycle.

 

[itsmoked]

I just don't see the problem.. The power company already controls when you can charge a car with NO communications other than your monthly bill! You plug your car into a separate meter. That meter is a time-of-use meter. You draw from that meter before 7pm you get hosed big time! The user or the car makers will put in timers to assure this doesn't happen.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

There are studies that show that the existing electrical grid and power production facilities could support something like 10 million plug-in hybrids right now. I wish we did have more nuclear plants so if this is a way to get more, I'm all for it.

 

[ACCOTTER]

As was mentioned above in previous threads, if this about efficiency of A) [Rankine cycle power plant output – transmission/distribution system losses – electric car losses] vs. B) [Otto engine powered automobile output (Wankel engine for you Mazda fans)] then the winner is system A.

If this is about cost and feasibility, the free market rules. If it was COST efficient to have electric cars mass produced and driving on US streets then they would be.

By the way….there are several Load Management Systems deployed throughout various utilities with capabilities to remotely meter residential homes and also control residential loads i.e. turn off your water heaters, air conditioning units, etc. at designated times. Initiating or turning on a system via these Load Management Systems would be no problem.

 

[itsmoked]

If this is about cost and feasibility, the free market rules. If it was COST efficient to have electric cars mass produced and driving on US streets then they would be.

This should be the way. But is NOT reality. Why? Because it all comes down to a few dimwits,(note: all of Detroit), sitting in board rooms saying I don't think so.. Let's stick with what we have now, we made a lot of money with it a while ago..

I'd buy an all electric car tomorrow if it could do 80 miles 10 at freeway speeds.

I have about 10 friends who would buy them too. None of us commute over 15 miles one way. All of us have other, "long range" vehicles.

But all the makers seem to think any electric car is going to require 160+ miles and remote charging stations, etc, etc. It's sad.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[jghrist]

I have about 10 friends who would buy them too. None of us commute over 15 miles one way. All of us have other, "long range" vehicles.

GM found with their EV-1 that there aren't very many people like you and your friends that will plunk down a lot of dough for a second vehicle with a limited range.

 

[itsmoked]

That was what? Ten years ago? And based on a cockamamie leasing program, too. I think they found exactly what 'they' wanted to find, and now they are losing to Toyota..

I seem to recall many thousands of totally incensed people wanting to buy EV-1s and buy their leased EV-1s only to have GM demand them back so they could crush them all. One of the largest spasms of eco-stupidity seen in recent years.

That was also when gas was $1 a gallon.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[kamenges]

I think they found exactly what 'they' wanted to find, and now they are losing to Toyota..

Now that's funny. Sure, I see a few Prius on the road around here. But not as many as you would think given all the hype. There are Priuses sitting on the lot at the dealership (at least according to my local Toyota dealer's ad on the radio) so it's not like Toyota can't keep up with production. And for my driving mix my '96 Saturn gets roughly equivalent mileage, at less than half the initial investment.

I'm with jghrist on the extra vehicle thing. I certainly couldn't afford to have a special purpose vehicle sitting around. If I could I'd probably do it.

The guys in Detroit are capitolists, just like most others in the US. If their market research said that they could sell one million electric vehicles a year you would see one tomorrow, infrastructure be damned. The market won't support the demand so they stay out. Free-lance researchers are no dummies either. They generally know what it would take for the public to accept electric vehicles. You don't think there are a herd of people going after the Holy Grail as we speak? It's pretty easy to say 'Well, just make a battery that has greater capacity' or 'Well, just don't drive so far'. Its a little more complicated making it happen.

Keith

 

[itsmoked]

It's different around here I guess. The town I live in has a multi month wait for a Prions(Prius). I walk 8 blocks thru my residential area to work. Last month on the way home I counted 14 Priusouseseses. Approximately 2 per block and they're short blocks too!

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

There is a six-month waiting list for a Prius here at our local dealer in Oregon.

Simply building what people want to buy right now is not a successful long-term strategy for an automobile company. But even if GM should go out of business, the government will never let it happen.

I especially love Chrysler's pitch of $2.99 gas for three years as a way to unload their gas guzzlers. As a commentator wrote, it like a drug dealer helping out a junkie with a special deal to keep him coming back with his money.

 

[kamenges]

Prions, Keith? Aren't those the proteins that cause mad cow disease?

It is interesting how the availability (and presumably demand) changes so much in various areas. I don't know if this is due to marketing, cost/value perception or environmental benefit perception. For my money I'll wait for the affordable pure electrics. In my mind the hybrids have their place. It just happens to be the same place that the pure electrics fit.

dpc, you have to build what people will buy now. If you don't you won't have the money to research and develop what people will want in the future. And you better not let on what you seriously plan to build in the future or people won't buy what you are building now. I've seen more than one company go down the toilet because they announced a break-through product before it was ready for deployment and people stopped buying the current version in anticipation of the new one.

Back to the original point, do base powerplant efficiencies stay fixed regardless of size? I would suspect you could get rid of a pretty sizeable amount of the 7-10% transmission/distribution loss if you could put a smaller powerplant closer to the point of use. I know larger cities already do this. Would it work for me (village of 3,000)?

Keith

 

[itsmoked]

Prions, Keith? Aren't those the proteins that cause mad cow disease?

Absolutely! That's why I call them that when talking to all my neighbors that own them.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[roydm]

In Vancouver, a good % of the taxis are Prius. Speaking to some of the drivers they love them use half the gas and some are pushing 500,000 km without any serious maintenance issues. If I were driving every day I would seriously consider one. I don't think they could be classed as electric though since all the energy still comes from gas.
Roy