How much loss of energy between power plant and house? 2

[curtis74]

I'm trying to put together an intelligent argument against the use of household-charged electric vehicles based on several factors including the inefficiency with which electricity is delivered to the home. According to DOE reports, nearly 70% of the US electrical production is still coming from fossil fuels, so that little tidbit combined with how much of that energy actually reaches your house might make a rather persuasive argument.

Can someone help me out with a reference or website that might help me find out how much of the juice produced at the plant makes it to the average home?

 

[kevindurette]

I think we need to stop arguing over how to get the most out of fossil fuels. One day, all the money in the world won't get you a sack of coal or a quart of crude because there just won't be any. This stuff is non-renewable. If we don't act now and start looking at renewable energy soon, our descendants are going to hate us for it. There will be a development gap between fossil fuels and renewable energy when the switchover is made. The sooner we act on the switch, the easier it'll be.

I'm just an idealist, though. When it all gets boiled down, the whole discipline is governed by one single equation:

Efficiency = Desired Output / Cost

That's it. That's all anybody cares about. It's sad but true. I just wish there were more benevolent investors who see the lower returns on alternative energy sources as a public charity.

 

[rmw]

Back in the day when the handwringers were worrying about human birth rates outpacing horse birth rates which meant that someone was going to have to do without transportation and other handwringers were debating what to do with all the manure that the horses that there were were leaving on city streets, some guy named Henry Ford saw a way to make a buck by producing gasoline driven autos cheaply by utilizing a new concept called the assembly line.

He started with the technology that he had at the time, i.e. he didn't wait until microprocessor ignitions were perfected to start producing Ford Autos. What he did is viewed with 20/20 hindsight and not from the perspective of what was going on at the time.

But one thing was for sure, it wasn't the horse breeding problem or manure disposal problem that he set out to solve, it was a way to make a buck that he was after.

If someone percieves there is a buck to be made with the technologies that exist today, they will start producing a products that people will buy and 80-100 years from now someone will be writing a post in this forum about what happened in our time that changed the face of technology and industry.

I think I will live long enough to see this evolution occur, be it electric cars or "beam me up" machines.

rmw

 

[itsmoked]

Yep, true and good points. Most people really do think with their wallets. It's bad, and it's good, as it means you really do know what you need to do to get change. There isn't a lot of mystery. Make it cheaper and they will come.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[cranky108]

To answer an earler post, Power plants do have a curve of size vs effecency. And that curve also is driven by techonology.
That explains why 600MW seems good for coal plants, 1000MW seems good for nucular, and 100MW seems good for gas turbins.
There is also a size required and cost factor that enters here. 4.4MW IC plants may be cost effective and quick to install simply because there are so many that roll by with loads of coal (Mass production).

The result is power produced by a mix of plants with different cost factors (effecency also changes with unit load).

And the last factor that effects price of energy is location. Wyoming is a good location for a coal plant because fuel transportation is cheep.

 

[stevenal]

So time of use rates and demand control have been addressed. Lets take it to the next level, and treat all those plug in hybrids as a distributed resource the utility can use when needed. The inefficient Otto cycle is already being used to meet demand. Utility starts the hybrids on internal combustion, which feed the grid when demand is high. Please keep the tank full, and see that the exhaust is vented.

 

[cranky108]

So you are thinking that the utilities will send a check to the hybrid owners?

Try this out, in the middle of the night the utility needs your power, and in the morning you have no juce in the battery, and no gas in the car. (Sounds like a teenager in the house).
I just don't think it will fly like that.

How about the utilities buy the 4.4MW diesels, probally cheeper than the accounting with the hybrid owners (One penny for you, one penny for me).

 

[dpc]

You don't really need to run the engine to provide short time peak demand power from the batteries alone. If the batteries discharge below a certain point, the car can shut itself down.

The utilities are not going to need the power in the middle of the night - they need it for the morning and afternoon/evening peaks.

 

[cranky108]

So you run out of gas before you go to bed. That makes it better (Your car engine won't keep you up at night, like your air conditioner).

 

[itsmoked]

With a full electric you could actually UPS your house.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[biostat2]

It would seem very simple to estimate the actual amount of fossil fuels in mpg to run an electric car.
For internal combustion engines - gas vehicles have a conversion of from 20% to 25%. Diesel engines up to 75%.

So if we produce electricity from crude oil we have the initial conversion from burning the fuel which runs the turbins. What is the estimated energy conversion rate? You would have to factor in all costs from pumping water for steam generation to pumping water for cooling. Also the costs of the water itself which is often highly subsidized.

Next we have the energy loss of transmission which I have seen estimated at 5% to 8%.

Next we have the charging of the batteries. I have no idea as to the energy loss at this point but I am sure that it is known.

Finally we have the battery power to the electric motor. What kind of energy loss do we have at this stage? Again I have no idea as to whether the loss at this stage is 5% or 50%.

Efficient electric motors can achieve better than 90% energy conversion.

Just guessing, I would say that diesel is more efficient than electric and electric is likely more efficient than gas.

We also have the recovery of some electrical energy by tapping into braking.

In any case it would seem that we could answer this question by filling in the blanks and doing a little math.

 

[LionelHutz]

Personally I dont think electric vehicles will ever become mainstream. There is no possible infrastructure that will be capable of supporting them that can be built in the next 15 years and by then Im banking on the hydrogen economy taking over.

Where does the hydrogen come from? No-one touting hydrogen as the way of the future seems willing to actually address this question in a meaningful way.

 

[cranky108]

A better question is how to you store hydrogen?
Anyone have an answer for that.

 

[rmw]

Let's find out where the hydrogen is going to come from first; then we can worry about storing it.

rmw

 

[roydm]

I often work on a prototype skid that strips Hydrogen from natural gas and water. There's no reason to store large quantities if you can tie into a gas line and produce it locally.
Roy

 

[alehman]

roydm - How efficient is your process? How much electricity is required?

 

[LionelHutz]

I often work on a prototype skid that strips Hydrogen from natural gas and water.

Natural gas isn't a renewable energy source. Wouldn't it be better to use the natural gas directly instead of converting to hydrogen and adding more losses?