How much "un-paid" overtime is reasonable? 35

[MotoGP]

Greetings to my fellow engineers:

Several years prior to receiving my undergraduate MechE (1998) and since that time up until the present moment, I have been employed within the "petro-chem-offshore-marine" bailiwick.

Although I have found myself struggling with the specific language to use in this forum, so that I could make a lucid plea for your opinions pertaining to the subject matter, I'm prepared to let this version "fly".

I have been married (my first, and last, hopefully)for three years and have come to realize that my "devotion to my employer" (whatever that is supposed to mean) by working excessive hours over the "normal work week" (whatever that is supposed to mean)has been the result of my attempts at developing a "good will" quotient at work. It is intrusive on my personal life, and I don't have a good concept of "how-much-is-enough".

I mean to express that, at least for now, I still beleive in a law of "reaping-and-sowing" such that I feel that I should "put-in" (hours, other ways of returning value, etc.) before I expect to "get-out" (receiving promotions, salary increases, ensuring a greater likelihood of surviving a corporate re-engineering of its staff, and the like).

It makes me feel foolish now to admit that when I first began my engineering career, I used to scoff under-my-breath about the folks who showed up late, took long lunch brakes and left early every day. I used to admire not the "work-a-holic" but held in high-esteem the company "good-'ol-grinder". However, maybe these people that I once considered as "slackers" really have a more healthy approach to their management of life and a "normal" work week(40 hours?...hoo-ha!).

Does there exist a reasonable approach in dealing with the employer/immediate manager when "un-paid" overtime in the company culture appears to be the norm? Does one reasonably set (only for the purpose of this example) a 10-hour-per-week-limit for an un-paid "overtime-gift" to the employer? Or,is this a contemporarily perverse notion, and simply a matter of discipline and self-teaching to "put-the-calculator-down-at-5:00" and "beat-feet" out of the office?

It just has been the case, again in my bailiwick, that incompetent, lazy, bumblers can be seen receiving just as many kudos (if not more) than those who really seem to always put-forth the "yeoman's effort" (seems to be about 15-20% of employees that fall into this category).

In short (much too late to say that now, I guess) how much extra weekly work should one reasonably provide his/her employer with, that is not compensated by either increased income or vacation time? Could the answer be "0"?

This issue has confounded me ever since I have joined the ranks of the salaried work-world. When I was employed as a refinery operator, I could always count on getting paid for all of the time that I spent at the plant...just as a case-in-point. Should any of you have any thoughts on this matter, I would most genuinely appreciate each and every response. My best regards to all of you.

Pete

 

[NOx]

After spending some valuable time away from my desk, I have just re-read from the start the whole thread and from what has been written can only conclude that we are all, apart from thebigdog employees rather than employers, is it down to us to rethink and adjust our work ethic? would every Manager look to lay us all off because of an attitude change?
The alternative is to find the company where thebgidog works.

 

[zdas04]

Another option is to strike out on our own. I did that last week, I'll let you know how it goes.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

 

[buzzp]

ESOPs are rare and I think you would find that sort of commitment within these types of organizations, especially from the engineering staff.
It is not that engineers are not willing to give but when you get nothing back, then the only real course of action is to give less. This is human nature. It is and always will be a two way street. Most employers do not really care. It used to be a good company was easy to find now they are a unique.

 

[sirmick]

Salary/12/160??? That don't make sense? Try Salary/13/160 for a more fair calculation. Otherwise, your supposed hourly wage is inflated.

 

[TJWATKINSPG]

I am not too proud. What do you mean by ESOP? zdaz04 Good luck. I am rooting for you. This is the forum for you. Should you need the expert opinon of a peer ( not me by the way) you have the hook-up.

The truth will set you free. Best of luck. Geodude

 

[IRstuff]

Probably something like Employee Stock Ownership Program

TTFN

 

[zdas04]

Thanks for the good wishes. I realized that there just weren't enough independent engineering firms out there (LOL) and decided to increase the population. Five pages of consulting firms in my small-town phone book isn't nearly enough. As a one-man company in a very small niche, maybe I'll make it by working out of my house and keeping the overhead down. Hopefully I've established a reputation in my tiny niche (Coalbed Methane Facilities, Low-Pressure Operations, and Artifical Lift of Gas Wells at Very Low-Pressure) that will serve me well.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

 

[buzzp]

sirmick,
Evidentally you did not read all the posts. This is the way my first employer out of college calculated hourly wages for the sake of OT (major oil field company: pumps, drives, and service). Let me explain. Divide salary by 12 for the number of months, then divide by 160 hours (four weeks) in a month to calculate an hourly wage. As I said before, this is certainly not the traditional way but was the way they calculated your hourly wage. Yes it leads to a higher hourly wage.

 

[IRstuff]

All I can say is that your employer cheated you by undercounting your work hours, since there are actually 4 1/3 weeks per month (52/12).

This means that you were being cheated out of 8% of your salary.

Regardless of what they tell you, there are 52 weeks in a year and 2080 working hrs in a year.

TTFN

 

[TheTick]

Math reality check:

if x>0 and y>160, which is bigger: x/160 or x/y? Dividing by fewer hours leads to larger hourly pay.

 

[IRstuff]

The point is that you're contracted to work the full 2080 hrs, so dividing your yearly salary by fewer hours is a sham.

If it makes you feel better to be fooled into thinking you're being paid more, then that's a different issue altogether.

TTFN

 

[buzzp]

Some of you evidentally can not read. This formula was used to calculate hourly wages for OT, not salary. Now if your employer uses the formula that is raising so much fuss (salary/12/160) versus the more common formula of 52 weeks a year to calculate your hourly wage, for the sake of OT, and you dont like it then tell them to use the more common approach. They will, guaranteed. The more common approach will produce a lower OT hourly wage.
I suggest to all of those that feel the need to jump on the bandwagon to learn how to read or put the concept into practice and read before you post.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Hi ... had to offer my two cents into this conversation. I, like all of you, have had my fair share of problems with Managers not liking me having a life outside of the office. And now that I (along with my wife) am the proud parent of a 1 year old, there's just waaaay to much playing and things to be done at home.

I recently read an article that appeared in some Trade Journal. Read it ... Learn it ... Live it ...

Enjoy:

It’s a job
by Gregory Robson

Your world has become a community of instant communication and high-tech productivity. Your workstation is filled with the fastest components to help you produce more in less time. You work (or your peers do) in 3D modeling and collaborate on the Web. Your online home page gives you the latest news—and even information on how to cope with the reality of downsizing. Your monthly issue of Cadalyst helps you see where technology is taking your profession, and provides tips and tricks so you can work more efficiently.

When you add to all of this the ever-increasing demand to maximize productivity, increase revenue, and cut expenditures, you’ll likely find yourself spending 50 or more hours a week at your job, plus a few more hours thinking about it. Your fast-paced existence has snared you.

What exactly is your job? Is it your identity? Is it your personality? Is it the fiber that makes you whole? No, your job is just that—your job. It’s what you do for a living. It provides what you need to live. It’s an important aspect of your life, and you should strive to do it the very best you can. But it’s not the only aspect of your life.

You are, first and foremost, a human being. You have a heart and a soul and emotions. These are the things that make you who you are. They are with you everywhere, even at your job. If you don’t devote enough time to nourishing them, your focus becomes misdirected and you are no longer balanced. Your ability to make good decisions becomes skewed. All aspects of your life then suffer—including your job.

In today’s demanding world, it’s easy to allow your job to take over your life. But you must not let it. You must strive to do your very best not just at your job, but at living well. How you nourish and enrich yourself is an individual choice.

Perhaps it is exercising regularly and developing better eating habits. Stress does contribute to binge eating and drinking and other bad habits.

Perhaps it’s being kinder, more thoughtful, or more loving. Try being a better friend to someone or smiling at strangers. Try visiting a home for the elderly. Take some flowers or a book with you. Tell your spouse, “I love you,” as you start each day. Try sitting in the sunshine watching the clouds or throwing a ball for your dog. Do something that will make you feel good inside.

Jobs can come and go, but you get only one life. So enjoy it and don’t work yourself to death — that will come soon enough.

Cheers ...

Brian Mazejka

P.S. What's the solution to working long hours ? I'm not really sure, but I know in the long run, I'll feel better knowing I put my family/friends FIRST.

The old saying really does apply here ... "Work to Live, NOT Live to Work."

 

[torch]

What a great thread - and one which is close to the bone for most of us.
In a similar vein I was talking to some friends about annual leave. One who had worked in the USA said that two weeks was the norm. Is this true??? This seems terribly low. In New Zealand 3 weeks is the minimum allowed by law and a lot of companies standardise on 4 which is what our company has done. I was on 5 weeks annual leave in my previous company although this seemed to be quite unique. I understand that European companies grant longer annual leave - 4 to 5 weeks?
Is this correct?

 

[GregLocock]

In Aus I get 4 weeks annual leave, 18 days sick leave, which accrues and is paid out on retirement or if I take a package, 10 days public holidays, and 10 weeks long service leave after 10 years. We also flex one day a month off. Despite (or because of) all that our productivity (as measured in some mysterious fashion) is among the highest worldwide in the megacorporation for which I work.

In the UK I was on 26 days annual leave when I left.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[zdas04]

I got 5 weeks in the U.S. (after 20 years) Starting was 2 weeks, at 5 years it went to 3, at 10 it went to 4, and at 20 it went to 5 (six weeks after 30 years, but few see that). Salaried exempt folks in the company I just left did not get a set number of sick days, if you got sick you took time off, you certainly didn't acrue any days.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

 

[sc]

Greg,

Yep we have it fairly good here in Australia.

As an additional question how much unpaid overtime do you work in a year?

I once thought that as professionals we had it fairly good, until I looked at the unpaid overtime of some friends. Some were working as much as an extra 10 days a year (average was 7 days by consensus of the group). So the actual annual leave if you like was only 13 days. Sick leave for most industries, especially factories/private companies is only 10 days minimum (still accrues). Now some sectors are only allowing sick leave to accrue for 2 years before it is returned to 10 days available.

On the whole though we still have it fairly good here.


Regards

sc

 

[PSE]

Here in the US I have experienced similar leave as to what zdas04 indicates. If you are just starting out, 2 weeks annual personal leave is typical, though in some cases you need to work there a minimum of X months in before you can actually take it and your first year you might only get a portion based upon how the company policy works. Most companies give a jump to 3 weeks after 5 years service and from there it varies. The first company I worked for left 3 weeks as maximum, the second went to 4 weeks at 10 years and the current place I work can go up to six as your service years progress. I also get two personal days (time off with no notice needed) and "unlimited" sick days. The company has 10 "standard" holidays and 2 floating days off that it uses anywhere in the calendar.

One thing is that once you decide to change jobs, you might end up the clock over again at 2 years if you cannot negotiate the additional time off up front. I've seen some people stay in a job that they were not enjoying because they did not want to start over at 2 weeks vacation with a new company.

Regards

 

[Cheeseburger]

With regards to Time Off, every company I've every worked for (here in the U.S.) started every employee at 2 weeks. Then you were granted 3 weeks at 5 years, 4 weeks after 10 and so on. Sick time was a separate issue, I've seen anywhere from 5 to 10 sick days allowed per year.

The latest trend I've been seeing in some companies lately is that they'll roll sick days into your vacation days. And the sad thing is they don't tell you up front. Only when you ask AFTER you've agreed to the terms and taken the position will they tell you.

So you'll start a job think you're getting 3 weeks vacation when in fact whenever you use a sick day, you're using up vacation (you'd be amazed at how much time you can use during the winters up in New England when there's a significant snow storm and no way to get to work). Then when you plan on that BIG vacation and find out that you don't have enough time off ... wow.

Anyway, I like what I've heard from some other people in this thread who work in foriegn countries. 3 weeks minimum to start ??? That's the way it should be in the U.S.

But that's just my opinion ...

Cheers

Brian

 

[corus]

In the UK the legal minimum number of days holiday is 20 but the norm is about 25 plus 8 public/bank holidays.
There is no limit on the number of sick days as such. If you're sick then you're allowed 5 continuous days sickness after which you need a doctor's note. Seeing the doctor is of course free regardless of income, though those in work pay a national insurance of about 6%. After some months of sickness then your pay is reduced though that may vary from company to company. You may then be retired through ill health after that.
If you start putting a limit on the number of sick days then you'll have people going to work with all kinds of infections. There are some who will still go to work even though they are coughing up. I find that wearing a surgical mask when talking to them gets the message across that they should go home.