How to fix this? 2

[XR250]

W8x67 flush beam w/ 2x10 joists on each side. This is how I showed the beam being packed out....

This is what I got.. Basically, they did not put the OSB in and just cranked the (2)2x8 into the kern of the beam so it is sitting about 3/8" inside the edge of the flange...


Now the hangers are not plumb and are bent. Not sure how to put a number to this. I realize the lower nails are missing but I am not even close to the hanger capacity. I'd like GC to take it down and do the padding correctly if not adding a bit thicker so it sits 1/4" proud of the beam as this will give them the opportunity to clean up the joist cuts. He will be upset to say the least. The entire installation is not great. I mean it is only an 1800 lb beam x 25 ft. long.

 

[Ron247]

1 other problem I have had with this type of detail is mill tolerance can be a +1/4" and -3/16 on flange width (+5/16" if over 12" depth). Factor that in our list of boo boos.

 

[Greenalleycat]

I'm baffled by all the engineers finding ways to defend this shit house construction (shit house is both a general slang for something really shit, and a literal description of the construction of this house)

 

[Tomfh]

It’s not the prettiest, but it doesn’t look like it’s going anywhere. I’m more concerned by the pretty buildings that fall apart.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Contractors are professionals who are paid good money to do things properly and as per the plans
We are not here to find ways to justify their shit construction
These problems are usually best solved by telling the contractor to pull it down and do it again properly
At worst, you provide a solid remedial detail that we know will perform...none of this "load test it with water containers" stuff

There are times when things are too difficult and compromise is needed, or someone makes a genuine mistake and we lend a hand...this isn't one of those times
The client didn't pay for that shitshow, the Code/manufacturer/engineer didn't spec it - some lazy monkey with a hammer built it
It's just shit construction

 

[Ron247]

One thing I see is how little the contractor cared about the simple appearance of the connection. If I was trying to get away with the poor fit of the hanger, the rest of the detail would have been "purdy". If this is not going to be sheeted over, I would insist it be replaced if I was the Owner. No way I want my friends, future home inspectors or future buyers seeing that mess.

The upper notch for the joist is far too wide and deep. If you straight edge it, you cannot tell where his notch stops. Those lower toe-nails might not go into anything. Look at the joist on the other side, it does not make any contact. The adjacent joist shows it is not full thickness at the hanger, in fact it looks like #3 lumber.

I don't think anyone is defending the workmanship, I think everyone agrees, it looks like crap and may function like crap. I have no problem with load testing, but it would have to be all of them, not a representative few.

 

[Greenalleycat]

I just don't think load testing is the right solution for this problem

The contractor is in breach of contract presumably (as this will not be an acceptable construction in any drawings or specification)
It is clearly not what is drawn and is less reliable than the original design even if it load tests appropriately
It looks like shit and will be a concern for anyone who views that work in the future
These situations always involve a transfer of liability from the person who has done the shit work to those who accept it
The client is also paying full money for a worse solution - why should they have to accept that?

The correct solution there is for the contractor to do it how it should have been done or, if that's no longer feasible (probably not here with a 25' beam in place) to make good at their own cost to a solution that looks plausibly as if an engineer had specified it that way to begin with - not like a dog's breakfast

 

[KootK]

The client is also paying full money for a worse solution - why should they have to accept that?

Because relationships matter. On a project of any significance, the best outcomes are always achieved when the important relationships remain sound. So we pick our battles. It's a critical aspect of structural engineering project management.

Owners of any sophistication will do the same rather than rigidly adhere to "I'm not getting exactly what I paid for, do it over". Rather, you accommodate transgressions of of little significance and retain that precious contractor good will for when it matters.

I've never worked on a project of any significance that didn't have a fair bit of "ugly" tucked away in the corners. And the prettier the finished product, the more ugly there tends to be tucked away.

I'm baffled that anyone would think that there's actually a structural problem here for a lousy 350 lb end reaction in a wood shack.

I'm baffled that anyone would think that this is a wise hill to die on.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Because relationships matter. On a project of any significance, the best outcomes are always achieved when the important relationships remain sound. So we pick our battles. It's a critical aspect of structural engineering project management.

Owners of any sophistication will do the same rather than rigidly adhere to "I'm not getting exactly what I paid for, do it over". Rather, you accommodate transgressions of of little significance and retain that precious contractor good will for when it matters.

I've never worked on a project of any significance that didn't have a fair bit of "ugly" tucked away in the corners. And the prettier the finished product, the more ugly there tends to be tucked away.

I'm baffled that anyone would think that there's actually a structural problem here for a lousy 350 lb end reaction in a wood shack.

I'm baffled that anyone would think that this is a wise hill to die on.

For one thing, you and I and everyone on this forum knows that, if this is how they build a joist hanger, the rest of the work will be equally shoddy, especially once you let them off the hook with this
In my experience, if you give an inch, the contractor takes a mile
You compromise to help good contractors who make honest mistakes
You don't compromise to help idiots who can't hit themselves in the head with a hammer - it will just burn you

 

[KootK]

For one thing, you and I and everyone on this forum knows that, if this is how they build a joist hanger, the rest of the work will be equally shoddy, especially once you let them off the hook with this

I do not know that. I find that most of my contractor friends are good people trying to do good work and that a little understanding tends to go a very long way.

I certainly do not consider it my role to punish other adult project team members in an effort to "train" them.

 

[Greenalleycat]

Your perspective is off. It is not "punishment". They had control of their actions. They did it wrong. We do not have to accept it and I would not be putting my name against that workmanship. They had their choices, and we have ours. Evidently you and I would make different choices in this situation.

I have met many good contractors too. I enjoy longstanding positive relationships with the good ones. Perhaps you and I are similar in that regard.

 

[KootK]

I'm baffled that anyone would think that there's actually a structural problem here for a lousy 350 lb end reaction in a wood shack.

As a basis for comparison, last week I was working with Mitek on some joist hanger uplift values per the detail below.

With two of those toe nails, the hangers are rated for over 600 LBS uplift! And that's with the toenails trying to pull the flange a part in cross grain tension and the potential for the flange to pull away from the web at the glue joint. SIX HUNDRED POUNDS! Heck , you can get 90lbs with no nails at all.

With that in mind, does anybody really doubt that XR's hanger can handle 350 lbs just because you can slide a dime behind the hanger flange??

 

[KootK]

Your perspective is off. It is not "punishment". They had control of their actions. They did it wrong. We do not have to accept it and I would not be putting my name against that workmanship. They had their choices, and we have ours. Evidently you and I would make different choices in this situation.

I don't think that my perspective is off. You sound jaded and vindictive. You bet we would have made different choices.

At the places where I've worked, adopting an all or nothing "no errors shall be tolerated" mentality would have gotten me fired. Failure to collaborate.

 

[Tomfh]

I understand why some want it rebuilt — they want it done as per the drawing, fair enough. But I don’t see why it’s surprising that other engineers might not be as concerned.

 

[ANE91]

Defining “how bad is bad” is an oft-missed step in problem solving. While this looks bad, I have little doubt that it can reliably resist 350lb.

 

[XR250]

With two of those toe nails, the hangers are rated for over 600 LBS uplift! And that's with the toenails trying to pull the flange a part in cross grain tension and the potential for the flange to pull away from the web at the glue joint. SIX HUNDRED POUNDS! Heck , you can get 90lbs with no nails at all.

That is crazy.

 

[XR250]

For one thing, you and I and everyone on this forum knows that, if this is how they build a joist hanger, the rest of the work will be equally shoddy,

You are not wrong

 

[KootK]

You are not wrong

So you view this as pattern behavior and most definitely not an honest mistake? That matters.

It seems to me that all of this is a result of the contractor not installing that innermost layer of packing. And, even without the do over, I feel that surely cost the contractor more in installation hassle than could possibly have been saved by the omission. So I'm skeptical that this represents malicious intent. I don't see anybody chillaxing in swivel chair cackling and stroking their cat because they pulled of a big heist.

I don't know the full situation here but, on most of my projects, the "contractor" is more than one person. This means new people, rookies, and sometimes folks who are not native English speakers. Consequently, it is altogether possible that construction errors can be made even if the overarching contracting organization is reasonably omitted to quality work.

 

[KootK]

That is crazy.

Right? In retrospect, this could have been a great solution to your problem:

1) Remove the original hangers.

2) Cut access holes into the sheathing above the joist ends.

3) Install inverted joist hangers with those two stupid toe nails to get your 350 from the inverted 600 uplift capacity. Hang the damn joists.

4) Make it clear that you, and only you, will be the arbiter of what is reasonable on this project (including the orientation of the gravitational vector).

I believe that the kids call this gaslighting.

Like R.Kelly, you'll soon find yourself with a harem of emotionally broken contractors living in your pool house, waiting around to paint your toe nails and make you sammiches.

 

[XR250]

"
XR250 said:
You are not wrong
"

"So you view this as pattern behavior and most definitely not an honest mistake? That matters."


My response was based on there being other, less egregious installation issues that I did not mention. I don't believe there was malicious intent. Rather an inexperienced contractor with possible lack of supervision or his workers. He supposedly came highly recommended though.

 

[phamENG]

He supposedly came highly recommended though.

It's amazing what being good at polishing turds and putting lipstick on pigs can do for a contractor.