How to Get Green Engineers Some Horse Sense? 18

[KernOily]

I have green engineers on my staff that don't know which end of a hammer to apply to the nail.

Without sounding too much like an old furt curmudgeon (I ain't THAT old), the new crop of engineers has me worried. They can run a computer (well, mostly) but have zero horse sense, no hands-on manual skills, feel for the way things go together, and know nothing about the practical side of machines or processes. I can't send one of them out to the field to have an intelligent conversation with a welder or a crew lead.

30 years ago, kids built models, had Erector sets and Lincoln Logs, made jewelry, rode mini bikes and go-carts, did weavings and sewing, banged boards together to make a treehouse, and just generally tore stuff down and put it back together again. In so doing one learns invaluable lessons that you just can't learn any other way.

I really think the primary and secondary educational strategy in this country over the last 25 years is partly to blame. The "everyone must go to college to support the upcoming future service economy" is now coming home to roost and kicking us in the shorts.

I am really tempted to start having them do the oil changes on my truck. That might be a start.

I'd love to hear what you guys are doing about this. Might be a lost cause. Save me from my curmudgeonly malaise. Pete

 

[dbooker630]

The college that I graduated from had a great engineering co-op program where I split my time between studies and actual industry work experience. I was already one of those tinkerers that liked to build and take apart things, but 30 years later I still believe the work experience I got while attending school is invalulable. I now have a young co-op working for me and having the ability to apply what he has learned in an actual setting is great experience for him. I would look for young engineers who have work experience in a setting related to their field of study rather than a service job.

 

[TGS4]

When I worked at an EPC company, I led a group of about 10 summer/co-op students to a trade show. We looked at all sorts of actual things: flanges, valves, pipe, pressure vessels, pumps, etc. Some of the vendors even had cut-aways for valves, which even I found interesting. They all found that afternoon much more of a learning experience compared to their previous 1.5 months sitting at their desks.

I also second the idea of taking them out to the field. I recently found a photo of myself and a co-op student at a construction site for a major petro-chemical plant. Because it was only an hour drive from the office, when I had to go out, I took the student with me. I spend a few hours more than I needed to out there, but showing all those things that we had seen in drawings or sketches was invaluable. Seeing a whole lay down yard of the cryogenic insulated pipe supports that we had ordered two months prior was an eye opener. From that point onwards, I could see a much more practical approach to her work.

Myself, my first two summer jobs were as an oilfield operator and a gas plant operator. I learned all about "long shiny things" (pipe), and "tall shiny things" (pressure vessels) before I even learned about designing or fabricating them. But, by that point, I was very aware of the abuse that operators could lay on these things, and that certainly informed my design approach. That experience also informed my current thoughts about training for bolted flange joint assemblers (I received no training, and in hindsight did all sorts of things that now, as an engineer, I would never specify...). In that vein, I had one employer (a major oilsands producer), who had a mandatory 4 month term as a process operator (including shift work) for any process engineer who wants to be a plant contact engineer. Real. Practical. Experience.

 

[JedClampett]

When I read the little story between Bill and Adam, all I could think of Adam telling Bill;
a) Glad to do it and we'll charge it to your project!
b) Fine, Bill, that's a great idea, but it will change our multiplier from 1.85 to 1.9.
Bill wants all your people to go through a training course, but he's also the one negotiating to the gnat's butt when it comes to the bottomline for his projects. The big guys talk a great game, but they don't want it to affect their project.
Everyone wants the benefit of trained experienced people on the project, but no one wants to pay the tariff. In this day of capped rates and off shoring, there's no budget for hands on training or field trips. We try to fit them in, but it's hard to commit to them. Certain people will seek out the practical knowledge on their own or others won't.
I'm not saying it's right, but it's the times we live in.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If I have to interview one more "programmer" who is only capable of using Java, I'm going to snap.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[KENAT]

I attempt to give new hires (including interns and new external design houses) some very limited training on our CAD system and how we use it and some of our documentation standards, tolerancing (esp position)...

Unfortunately, overtime it's reached a point where it's pretty much self paced - I give them the ppt & list of resources and tell them to go over it in their own time & come back with specific questions, I'm generally not given the time (theirs or mine) to go over it in person.

Also many managers do not give them time to look over it and come up to speed.

Also many of the new employees don't take the initiative to try and complete it under their own steam - at least not in any depth - and I rarely get questions based on the training material. They also don't seem to show much initiative in trying to find out how things should be done etc.

I take great delight when one of them comes over - sometimes supervisor in tow - to ask me how to do something covered by the training and I ask them "did you look at that section of the training?".

It was most enjoyable when the intern in question was the engineering director's son, he and the guy overseeing him came over asking me how to do stuff and rather than answering directly I referenced them back to the training for each of their questions. After the second or third question they got the point and said 'sounds like I/you should go look at the training'. Ah, happy memories.

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[zdas04]

Co-op programs are a really sore point with me. When my son was in Engineering school his "adviser" (who had a PhD in English Lit, and an undergraduate degree in something like "women's studies") advised him that co-op's were a waste of time and he'd be better off mowing lawns during the summer. I hit the roof, bitched to the department head (who had never worked outside of academia) and he said he stood behind the advice, and my son should get his BS and stay for grad school instead of trying to do a co-op. I wanted to strangle the guy. The best new grads I've ever seen have all come out of the co-op system, but that system is being phased out at too many schools. I just don't understand.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[Mechomatic]

As a green engineer, I'd like to toss in some viewpoints from the bottom of the ladder.

I participated in most of the things that have been mentioned above as contributing to "horse sense". From toys as a kid to tearing down and rebuilding stuff- either to fix it or just because I could- to carpentry/electrical work either at home or as "extra-curriculars", I've always been the guy working on stuff. But there is only so much you can learn from those kinds of things. Welding, process engineering, fluids, serious machining- all stuff that just wasn't available to me (or anybody I know) growing up. Even in college with tools (but not much time) at my disposal, I didn't get (or, I suppose, find or take) an opportunity to really dig in and get dirty with the stuff that I just wish I knew better how to do.

I think most of the failing is in the hands of the new engineers who sat at their desk and didn't "get out there", but I strongly believe that engineering curriculum should have a two-course series on applied engineering (beyond the typical senior design project). Learning things such as system components (what they are and how they work) for various industries, engineering codes/standards (learning how to navigate the sea of them), and a larger focus within the one manufacturing course on welding, bolting, riveting, and more welding would have been useful.

 

[zdas04]

The shortcomings of Engineering programs are legion. I've heard it said many times that an Engineering degree just shows that you have the analytic ability to eventually become a contributing Engineer. People that hire new grads with the expectation that they will be able to replace the 20 year guy who just quit are truly doing a disservice to both the new-hire and to the company.

One thing that is easy to lose in this discussion is that today's class of new Engineers has every bit of the ability of any other generation. There might be more variation in the knowledge required for graduation from school to school than their used to be (I think ABET is really focusing on the wrong things these days), but the people have the same mix of stars and slugs as any other generation, and today's stars are every bit as competent as the stars of previous generations. The huge lack in the world today is the ability to treat new-hires as a future asset and develop them properly.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[HornTootinEE]

GTME12-

It might not have applied directly, but it taught you how to THINK

 

[tbuelna]

I have over 25 years experience in my field, and I have always worked with "green" engineers. The "green" engineers I have worked with recently actually have better skills than I do at tasks like creating analysis/simulation models in Matlab or writing scripts for CATIA.

I love having them around because they usually make my life easier. All you need to do is give them tasks that they are good at doing.

 

[makesparks]

One of the best "green" engineers that I work with happens to be a mechanical engineering graduate from my alma mater... They have been requiring a "senior project" for years now. This guy learned teamwork, design skills, critical thinking, welding, and Solidworks among other things. However, it also helped that he worked summers in a tooling & die shop. If all the mechanical engineers I have worked with over the years had his skills, there would have been a lot fewer headaches for me. After all, when a machine build is completed - it becomes a "programming" problem. (Just ignore the piss-poor design and improperly sized / positioned actuators)

 

[a2mfk]

It is interesting that the majority of the reactions to the story about formal corporate training was to go out and get non-academic experience, not more classroom or corporate training. Get your nose out of a book and open the hood of a car, or pick up a hammer, or get a hands-on job while in college. I agree with all of these things as good professional and character builders.

But I also see formal corporate training as a valuable tool, and not a cost to the company, but an investment in their future as well as the employees. The faster you can get young engineers up and running, the sooner they will be profitable for you. The harder that running back trains in the offseason, the more productive he will be in the regular season.

But the one thing I would have done differently (as a structural engineer) is work/intern with a construction or engineering company while in school. I think a summer on a construction site or factory (I did the latter) would be awesome for nearly any engineering student. We all have our gripes and complaints about our undergrad programs, ABET restrictions, classes that we did not need, etc., but until that changes, the only way to get more practical experience is to go out and seek it as a college student. Unfortunately, most students, myself include, did not have that kind of foresight.

So back to the OP about greenhorns- do what my boss did, and bring them to every site visit and meeting possible. Get them exposed to the built environment maybe even before shoving them behind a computer or set of drawings. It makes design and thinking in 3D a lot easier if you have seen whatever it is you are dealing with. Even just letting a young engineer shadow a site superintendent in the field for a couple of days would be an awesome experience.

 

[squeeky]

Well done HornToot EE. Teach people how to think and not what to think.I call it missing the glue. Know the formulas, can work a calcualtor and a computer can't put it together. My compnay has all training programs. Holiday jobs, Vac students, In-service trainees and Engineer In training programs. We spend a fortune. As soon as they start becoming usful the leave for more money or perks thinking that they still know it all. I have three students follwing me around at the moment. 6 months of hell on my part. I'm very short with them and very direct. I have told them if they don't like it they are free to leave. They atend meetings, Factory Acceptance tests, Rewind checks, and we discuss every safety incident that comes our way. They have to get into overalls and get dirty. They are required to write reports so I can check on comprehension. More work for me. I know when they are finished with me they will be able to cut it. I hardly ever tell them what an answer is, I ask questions and get them to answer. When they do, I ask why and how they arrived at the answer. More hard work.You can't learn experience from a book. You can't eat or drink it. You can't study it. You have to experience it. Sore muscels and tired minds is a good day.

 

[IRstuff]

Internships are still alive and well in Silicon Valley.

While the movie is obviously a caricature, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etal, are all investing heavily in interning college students, both as a means of pre-training future employees, but also as a means of probating those potential employees, as well as providing a concrete example of what a full-time engineering job looks and feels like once these students graduate. I was lucky enough in my college days to get summer and part-time jobs in the industry, so I had a pretty good idea what real work would be like, and I wound up at the company I part-timed at. I think there's a much better transition to the real-world if you've already been in it as an intern or part-timer.

My son got an internship at such a company last summer, and will be reporting to his full-time job there after he graduates this year. Of course, there was the lure of free three squares a day ;-)

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[Mechomatic]

HornTootin EE- I absolutely agree. The analytical skills I had (athlete's raw talent) were certainly honed through my education. But that first step is a doozy when you're all of a sudden playing in the big leagues and there are previously-unseen things like standards/codes and a lack of "back-of-the-book" materials properties. The jump is, of course, manageable.

Anyway, I was not meaning to complain about the way things are done. I apologize if that's how I cam across. I simply wanted to share my perspective from the other end of the experience spectrum.

 

[moltenmetal]

KernOily- a very timely post, and a very important topic. Engineers in general have a reputation among the trades, in many cases well deserved, of lacking horse-sense. Sometimes that arises because hindsight is 20/20, but often it arises because of a failing in engineering education. That failure isn't principally at the university level- it's part of the broken transition from school to work that has been getting nothing but worse over the past 20 years.

It would be impossible to teach codes and standards etc. at the university level, because the profs don't know anything about them. The profs they hire today are nearly all academics with zero or near zero meaningful industrial experience, otherwise they would not have been considered qualified candidates in the "paper chase" that academia has become. In my day, there were at least a few old industrial guys still around, but they're all retired or in the ground by now. 100% of their replacements are researchers, some of whom are gifted teachers, but none of them are competent to teach sizing and selection or plant design in my opinion.

I'm lucky, working in a design/build setting, and because I grew up with a machine shop in my basement.

Here, we hire co-op students, then pick the best ones and hire them- that takes care of the personality fit, drive and other stuff that is only a guess in an interview. I agree with other posters: there are just as many superstars as there ever were in the new crop of engineers, and just as many duds.

As far as training them, we've figured out how to mentor people decently on the job, where in reality most of the real, meaningful and effective training takes place out of pure economic and practical reality. It's always been that way in anything other than big companies- it's a mentor/trainee relationship during the execution of the work that gets the ideas across best. We've been pretty good, if a little lazy recently because we've been busy, at getting the juniors to do seminars for the continuing education of the whole group, under the direction of a mentor- that works better than getting the mentor to do the seminar. There are seminars we repeat every year because the topics are key to our business.

As to the practical hands-on part, there were just as many kids who were useless with tools in my batch in chem eng as there are now, and that was a couple decades ago. Most people in the class had little to no hands-on with hand tools much less machine tools- and those ranks slimmed even further when I was in grad school. I was the only one in a 19 person group of post docs, PhD and Masters' students, who could do basic electrical troubleshooting, bend and swage tubing etc. It's no different today, except there's more DIY home reno going on today than there was in my day, and there are all these robotics teams etc. that didn't exist in my day either. On the contrary side, helicopter parents don't let their kids play with tools, or walk to school on their own etc., and that parenting style has been institutionalized in schools etc. The stuff I did with tools in my childhood would be considered parental neglect these days rather than what it really was- excellent training to be a competent human being much less an engineer. Honestly I don't know how so many people can be content with knowing so little about how the world around them "works", or how to fix any of it when it's broken- it would make me feel helpless.

At long last, we're starting a formal hands-on training program for our engineers- and not just the young ones. We're going to teach them, then let them DO, stuff that right now they can observe and learn about any day of the week in our facility, but many choose not to for whatever reason or do so in a very superficial fashion. We do have the 'elf and safety and liability rubbish to concern ourselves with, but right now we feel that the risk of having ignorant people designing work for tradesmen to implement is a much worse liability to us than the risk of some burns or scratches in training. We're already ahead of the game because we're non-union and there's none of that work differentiation/turf protection crap to put up with- the shop staff are enthusiastic about demonstrating their skill and knowledge and carrying out some of the training. We'll let you know how it works out- it's going to take some time and effort.

 

[brandonbw]

"If I have to interview one more "programmer" who is only capable of using Java, I'm going to snap."
But imagine working with experienced drafters who don't know how to draft!

My Senior Design project was a year long design and document process with a professor, actual person working, and team of 8 other students. With the final being a lecture to the real workers about what we were proposing. I went to a research school but we still had hands on for most of the stuff we studied. Like pouring concrete, using an earthquake simulator table, etc. Is that not normal for College in the States?

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

 

[IRstuff]

Java is definitely a step up from Alice. I almost sense an ex-coworker who declared that anyone using C++ instead of assembly language was a dilettante ;-) Seems like hard-core programmers all look down on people that use what they consider an inferior language. At least they're not using Ruby on Rails, which is supposedly even simpler to use than Java...

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[kylesito]

I don't think you should leave the university's themselves out of this discussion. The push over the last decade or so has been to produce "well rounded engineers". Perhaps we were better off when engineers weren't as much well rounded as they were sharp? We have had senior level interns come through our company who haven't taken a steel or concrete course at all. On the rare chance we get a second semester senior through that has, or is currently taking, a design course, we find out that they haven't done more than create shear and moment diagrams.

One big step I believe is for universities to start hiring professionals out of the workforce instead of career researchers. It's not that research isn't valuable but I think the students would fare better being taught by someone in undergrad who has actually designed a beam as opposed to someone who has written 12 dissertations on why the steel behaves like it does when it's in use.


PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[IRstuff]

Seems to me that these arguments are hardly new. When I went to college many eons ago, I specifically inquired about what mix of practical vs. theoretical existed at my candidate schools. Almost all of my non-frosh class professors were well-known in their respective industries, and were often called to consult in industry. Nonetheless, it was not uncommon to refer to professors as "ivory-tower" types back then as well. Most of my son's current professors are heavily tied to their respective industries.

That said, a graduate from a college in the middle of nowhere is unlikely to have had professors with industry ties, simply because there's probably a lack of industry around such places.

Furthermore, college is what you make of it; when I graduated, I had lab courses as well as 2 equivalent years of relevant summer/part-time jobs. One of my classmates, though, had not yet even touched an oscilloscope at graduation.

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