How will American Free Trade affect the Americas and Engineering? 4

[GolfMeeting]

How will American Free Trade affect the Americas and Engineering?

What will it do for us engineers?

I have seen where workers from Canada are in Venezuala this week protesting Americas Free Trade Agreement proposal. I don't know anything about it either way, but I am sure it will affect us all.

 

[GolfMeeting]

Molten - When you refer to Americans, I assume you are talking about all Americans such as Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, ect....

I think I know what you mean, but anyone in the Western Hemisphere not living on an Island is an American. There are US citizens, Canadians, Mexicans, Texans, Venezualeans, and ect... Each of these nationalities are Americans due to they live on one of the two American great land masses.

The question I have, is why do the people with less $$$ in the less powerful countries despise free trade?

 

[Heckler]

The question I have, is why do the people with less $$$ in the less powerful countries despise free trade?

Answer: The only experience these people have with the more powerful countries (USA) is through the American Media....which we know only sensationalizes these free trade events from the neg slant.

I'm not in total support of free trade but it has its merrits if implemented correctly. I've noticed a lot of jobs these days requiring a second language (Spanish, Mandarin, & Cantonese)why do you think that is?

 

[davefitz]

It will open up a market for US manufactured goods , which currently must pay a huge import tariff when shipped to South america, perhaps as much as a 60% tax , unless the parts are primarily assembled in south america or the few countries they deem to be special trading partners.

As with Nafta, there will be a marked tendency for arbitrary re-application of import tariffs based only on political contributions, with no real enforcement of the trade provisions. Witness the Canadian soft wood fiasco. As with Nafta, we will see more US factories close if their business cannot compete with the South American labor forces.

The overall trend would be to shift menial work typically performed by less skilled or younger people to south america, and in some respects this assists in our youth-challenged age distribution of the poplulation. The uglier side is that it becomes just another sopurce of political favors to market to those companies that wish to contribute to political parties in return for re-applied import taxes.

 

[dporte17]

Golfmeeting:

Q - "The question I have, is why do the people with less $$$ in the less powerful countries despise free trade?"

Many of the people in the developing countries have had the experience (or heard the stories) of foreign (especially American) Multi-National Corporations (MNCs) setting up a production facility and then treating the locals workers like they are disposable, with poor pay and poor working conditions. When this strategy doesn't work any more, the MNCs pull up the machinery (if there is any) and move somewhere else. The locals are left with little or nothing, often worse off than when they started.

Is this a stricktly correct view? Likely not, but there is some truth to it, and it is gaining "traction" amoungst the working class in many of these countries. This is only one group that is against the open markets, for only one of the many reasons.

The book "The Challenge of Global Capitalism" does a good job of talking about why some people do not like the whole concept, and what are some of the challenges that lie ahead. There is a brief summary of it here -

http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/i6778.html

Is free trade overall advantageous? Only time will really tell. The one thing that is certain is that there are going to be some winners, and there are going to be some losers.

Dave

 

[StressGuy]

Free Trade/International Capitalism can really only work if all countries involved adopt similar levels of worker/environmental protections, social support structures, education, etc.

While the goal of capitalism it to reduce the cost of production through greater efficiency (driven by competition), that's not they way it really works now. One of the reasons that wages are what they are in America and the other developled nations is that those wages go to support the EPA, OSHA, Social Security, Etc. because we have come to expect governments to have mechanisms in place to protect against wayward exploitation by companies.

When you ship the jobs off to a place like China, where life is disposable and you don't have the "costs" that go with it, not to mention a very large population base, it's easy to drive down wages.

The CEO would say that's just more efficient. To the rest of us, it just looks like exploitation. How do we fix it? I don't know.

I think perhaps if the U.S. government imposed a requirement on foriegn companies that sell their wares to U.S. customers that they follow several U.S. laws (e.g. 40 hour week, minimum wage, Health/Safety/Environmental), it would force the standard of living to really move up at those companies and this would cascade back to those countries into the various local businesses. That said, I can't see politicians in the U.S. ever having the strength of character to pull that off.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

 

[ScottyUK]

Golfmeeting,

Re. All inhabitants of western hemisphere who aren't on an island are American:

Spain? Portugal? Continental Western Africa?

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/resources/World_pol_grat.jpg

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

 

[moltenmetal]

RDK: the softwood lumber problem Canada is experiencing with the US is the exception rather than the rule. Troubling yes, but an indication of the total breakdown of free trade? Hardly. The U.S. actually believes in free trade, but it also has a political system subject to enormous political interference by corporate special interests. Nothing's perfect. Note that though I understand the cause of the problem, I don't condone their abdication of their responsibilities under the agreement, nor the growing tendency of the US to "go it alone" and avoid participation in any number of multilateral agreements.

The US continues to trade freely on virtually all items besides softwood lumber, despite an enormous trade deficit with us. That's an indication that they actually DO believe in free trade.

That said, I would find Canada's dispute with the US over softwood lumber to be very troubling if I were a smaller nation negotiating a free trade agreement with the US. Without a mutually-binding dispute resolution mechanism, a free-trade agreement is meaningless. This was a fact that was not lost on the Canadian negotiators, who actually returned with a recommendation NOT to sign the deal. Unfortunately, we Canadians fought an election on the issue so that it became impossible NOT to sign the deal.

GolfMeeting: sorry, but you'll never hear a Mexican, a Canadian, a Brazilian etc. refer to themselves as an "American". Perhaps "North American" or "South American" as a continental description like "European" or "Asian"- but "American"? Come on! You know very well who I'm referring to when I say "American"! And it's a simple statement of nationality, rather than one of pan- continental ownership. Let's not be ridiculous!

 

[RDK]

I agree that the real cost to the US of the software lumber dispute is to the reputation of the US.

They sign these deals and then ignore it when their internal special interest groups can put enough pressure on the politicians to violate their word.

Not good news for another country negotiating with the US is it?

Not good news for US manufacturers wanting access to other countries markets for their goods and services either is it?

Not good news fro US interests in being considered an honest and ethical nation on the world stage either.


If they really do believe in free trade then why don't they practice it? or are the US ethics situtational?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[arunmrao]

If they really do believe in free trade then why don't they practice it? or are the US ethics situtational


Well said. Not only in trade but in other areas too the administrators and politicians have selective visibilty . Internally too Devastation by Katrina also gives a lot of food for thought

 

[graybeach]

An Op-Ed Piece in today's "New York Times" suggests that better living standards for engineers in developing countries may actually have improve living standards for engineers in the US. Apparently, although there are more foreign graduate students this year than last, there are still far fewer than there were in 2002.

There are many reasons for this, 9/11 for example, but one of the reasons cited is better prospects for students in developing countries. As prospects improve abroad, fewer foreign engineers are coming to study and work in the US.

The result will eventually be a decreased supply and more competition amoung employers. How could this be a bad thing?

 

[Ashereng]

Here are some more thoughts.

Free Trade currently exists between the US and Canada. A Canadian engineer is covered under NAFTA if he/she wants to go work in the US (and this is welcomed as there are shortages of engineers in the US). An American engineer is also covered under NAFTA if he/she wants to go work in Canada. The reality is, there is not a lot of cross border movement. People usually chose to work in an area they are familiar with. If you grew up in Houston, and went to school at Texas A&M, there is a good chance you will stay in Texas, and less of a chance you will go to Canada.

With regards to salaries dropping/rising. Well, this is a loaded question. If an engineer makes $4,0000 a year, we would say that this is a low salary. Would it still be low if say the annual household expenditure is $2,000 where this job happens to be? In that light, I guess not. You need to evaluate income and expenditure together, otherwise, you sort of miss the point. If I worked in LA, and lived in LA, I would probably ask (and hopefully get more in my salary), than if I worked and lived in Billings Montana.

With regards to living standards dropping/rising. Well, this is another loaded question. I don't know how I would answer that. There are several posts above that talk to this. My take is that Free Trade alone is not the deciding factor on living standards. The inner city slums in most major US, Canadian, English, French, German, Japanese, you get the idea, urban cities speak to the vast number of factors that affect living standards. I drove past the (I believe it was) Fireston estate about 5 years ago. All along the "notches" in the wall of the estate were "card board shanties". I guess that Free Trade doesn't really rank up there as to a cause for this discrepancy.


Is Free Trade good for America? For (put name of country here)? I guess it would depend on view point of the person answering. Just as after USC meets Texas to determine the number one team in the land, one side is going to be happier, one side is going to be less happier, and Penn State is going to be miserable because they weren't playing.

This last paragraph has a huge dose of tongue-in-cheek.

 

[wes616]

Ashereng,

I am currently makeing much more in Atlanta than I ever did in LA... I guess I worked for the wrong company before?



Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[Ashereng]

Wes,

Your profile says you were moving to Texas in Oct 2005?

Anyway, congrats on making much more in Atlanta than LA.

How did NAFTA and/or free trade affect your income increase? I'd like to know so I can try to make more too!

Insert winking emoticon here.

 

[ewh]

Wes.
How do you like Atlanta? The first time I drove thru it, it reminded me of the emerald city (even though that logo has been taken). In which part are you located? The traffic on the north side will probably remind you of LA. I was fortunate enough to work for ATT/Bell Labs in Norcross (before the plant was bought out). Good times to be had there.

 

[BigH]

There is little doubt that many multi-nationals manufacturing in developing countries treat their employees differently than back home and in many cases as deporte17 alludes shockenly so to the mind-set of US and Canadians. But, one should see how the local companies treat their employees!!
One other aspect of the Canadian/US bickering besides softwood lumber was in the area of pork. Unless the situation has changed, the US used to whine about how the Canadians "subsidized" their hog industry - selling hogs very cheap across the border. The US didn't do it, so they tried to persuade. But, whereas the Canadians put the subsidy on the end product, the US subsidized their hog industry by subsidizing the cost of feed. Same thing - different approach.
Ciao.

 

[JoeTank]

I really haven't thought much about this free trade thing, so I thought it would be interesting to learn something by reading thru this thread. It sounds like the USA does a lot of bad things to its trading partners. However, I see little mention of others doing bad things. Are we yanks that bad? I sure get weary of the one-sided stuff.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[GregLocock]

Um, yes, you are.

Not as bad as some other countries, but then those other countries don't have the economic clout of the USA, and do not claim to be in favour of free trade.

I actually think it is the hypocrisy that wrankles as much as the economic damage.











Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[PSE]

Greg,

For what it is worth, the hypocrisy wrankles the occasional US citizen as well. Too much time inside the DC beltway can make someone drunk on money. The world outside the beltway becomes an intellectual excercise for debate.

Regards,

 

[Ashereng]

Ideally, everyone should be able to:
forgive and forget

I would settle for:
forgive, and not forget

I think most people/countries/entities:
do not forgive, but forgot

 

[VisiGoth]

RE: BigH Canadian bacon subsidies.
I like Canadian bacon on pizza, as a part of meals, and just for breakfast. I just wish we could develop that industry local in the US!

I think that Cnadian bacon is one of the enduring marvals of branding.

btw, American hog farmers in the US midwest do well most years.