HR ethics 11

[KENAT]

I'm 99.9% decided on this one but throwing it out for comment just in case my ethical standard are off kilter...

Say you've accepted an offer of employment from a new employer, and handed in your resignation.

Current employer says they want to make a counter offer but insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted.

Thoughts?

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[Terratek]

Your worth to them can only be determined by them. You are not some horse to be traded.

Asking for "proof" of you worth as determined by others is probably just one more, from a long list of, mildly disrespectful and incompetent manners of interacting with employees that caused you to start looking elsewhere in the first place.

I disagree with others here that if you backed out of the new offer that you would have sullied your integrity. You are no more bound (less, in IMO) to the new employer than the last until they start placing dollars in your pocket. Though appearing similar to a contractual agreement, offer letters are really just a human resources CYA document they require you to sign. But hey, what an honor and how official looking!

FWIW, I think engineers, on average, offer way more "loyalty" to employers than what they receive in return. This feeling of obligation to a non-living entity (well, Mitt Romney might disagree with that description) is kind of silly.

 

[JAE]

Asking for "proof" of you worth as determined by others is probably just one more, from a long list of, mildly disrespectful and incompetent manners of interacting with employees that caused you to start looking elsewhere in the first place.

I can see where a lot of employees get this notion. It may be true in some cases but in my case at least, and with a lot of other fellow engineering firm owners I know, the request to see what the "market" is paying for engineers is not in any way disrespectful in and of itself.

So if an employer looks for "proof" of what they should pay their engineers from published salary surveys is that disrespectful and incompetent too? Not necessarily.

How is it any different then when one of their employees (KENAT in this case) comes to them, resigns, and they simply ask what offer they've received?

In some cases, and I agree with HamburgerHelper here, they may be simply looking to see what minimum they can offer you to stay. I concede that it may be true in some cases.

However, in MOST cases that I've seen, the employer is simply trying to understand the marketplace of engineers, compare the offer in all its facets (base salary, bonuses, 401k, paid time off, profit sharing, insurance benefits, - the whole package of compensation). This gives them a chance to offer their employee an adjustment since they've now been suddenly hit with the "wall of reality".

As I stated above, it's amazing how many employees think that their employer somehow magically "knows" what the "correct" or fair, or competitive salary is all the time for every employee. It just ain't true.

And the fact that they don't know this in no way is disrespectful or incompetent.

(just standing up a little for employers here)




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[IRstuff]

"And the fact that they don't know this in no way is disrespectful or incompetent."

Not the issue, as I see it; it's the asking to see the actual offer, as if Kenat would lie about the offer amount. THAT is the disrespectful bit; if they can't trust you to tell them the truth about a competitor's job offer, how can they trust you them the truth about bad things then?

Moreover, a competitor's costs and expenses are proprietary information, and your employer is asking you, in effect, to violate a confidential piece of information about a competitor, particularly if it reveals the cost of benefits beyond the basic salary, such as health insurance, pension, vacation, etc.

And, it cuts a third way; your employer could be particularly asinine by getting that information from you, making you a counter that you accept, which requires you to reject the competitor's offer, and then rescind their offer. Unlikely to happen a big company, but small companies on the other hand...

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[zelgar]

I think the biggest issue people around here about job offers, is the time to negotiate with your current employer is when you've received an offer. If you are given an offer don't accept it immediately if you think you might want to give your current employer a chance to counter-offer. If you want to play your current and future employers off one another for more than 1 round, be aware that if your performance doesn't equal their expectations, you may be fired.

If necessary, give the employers a drop dead date for final offers and make your decision based upon the offers at the table. Once you've accepted an offer, don't go changing your mind later.

 

[Terratek]

JAE,

Everybody wants as much as they can get and nobody wants to pay more than they need to. The only reason an employer wants to know the market rate for an engineer is so they can offer as little as possible and still get warm body. As an employer, I would follow the same practice. This is the nature of business. But that doesn't mean an employee should be sympathetic to it.

Asking for proof before making a counter offer smacks of poor etiquette. The employer either wants to keep the employee for the stated price or they don't. If you don't trust your employees, why would you want to keep them?

 

[TheTick]

I don't think I've ever been in a position where I would entertain a counteroffer. By the time I'm taking offers, it's not about just money anymore.

 

[JAE]

I'd agree that asking for proof is a bit much.
But asking for KENAT to tell them simply what the offer is is not disrespectful in my view.

Having said that, and re-reading KENAT's original post does indicate that they asked to "see" the offer. Yes - a bit tacky.

I was focusing on the statements here that implied that any and all employers just want to screw their employees. Not true.

Most of the firm's I've worked with and many of other firm's (where I know the owners) the attitude usually is that we (they) want to pay their employees a competitive rate - higher than the average....not the bare minimum.

Terratek - maybe you have but I've never worked for or managed a firm that wants to "offer as little as possible and still get warm body." Never seen it in over 30 years of practice.

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[Terratek]

JAE, I agree it would be totally okay to just ask.

Replace "warm body" with "an employee they want". Same principal. How otherwise would market rates, or even the concept of market rates, for salaries even develop if this wasn't the majority case?

I don't begrudge the system, I just don't delude myself that business is personal. It can be...until it's not.

 

[KENAT]

Thanks again all, I realize now that my OP may be a bit unclear to some.

My question wasn't fundamentally about the 'ethics' of accepting a counter offer etc. - that's been discussed before and I tend to agree with the consensus. (Although I'm hesitant to say never accept a counter offer if it's generous enough and depending on circumstances [i.e. not just the top line $ and are the circumstances 'extra ordinary' as Greg said] I'm inclined to agree with Tick & others that more often than not it's probably not for the best.)

My question was just about the aspect of 'show me the offer'.

I did decline to show them and pointed out that they did have my resignation in writing if that helped.

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[MacGyverS2000]

I wouldn't have an issue with letting them know how much my salary improved... it may help them become more competitive in the market, and if every company did that, it would help the average Joe's salary. But to be asked for proof is in poor form. Nothing unethical, per se, as the offer letter isn't an NDA, but still in poor form... to ask for or to show it.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[JNieman]

I think the only way I would provide evidence is by sending him an appropriately redacted copy of my paystub from the new place of employment. Possibly without redacting the expletives @MikeHalloran more maturely deleted.

 

[btrueblood]

"Current employer says they want to make a counter offer but insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted."

Yup, that's the part that made it weird, and I'd have declined as well. Smacks of distrust, and as pointed out, you've already given them a letter of resignation. I can imagine a lot of snarky responses to the request, but the wise man would just walk away.

 

[berkshire]

Depending upon your relationship with your current employer, I would not accept the counter offer , but walk away , make sure you do it on good terms , DO NOT BURN BRIDGES. Later after you are established in your new job , if your old employer wants to make you a better offer , you can entertain it .
By this time your old employer will have realized, that he really, has a need for you. This also gets away from the " I am going to fire you on my terms mentality." .
I had one guy , a good employee, I hired back 3 times. Maybe I was a soft touch.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[GregLocock]

Had another thought. Your salary offer is part of your employment contract. Would your current employer be happy to let you show the new employer your current employment contract?

I'm kind of guessing they'd squeal like pigs.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[ewh]

As an aside... Congratulations!

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-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[snarkysparky]

How about expecting employers to pay employees according to their worth to the company. Making a counter offer is equivalent to admitting they underpaid you.

 

[KENAT]

ewh - trying to be deliberately vague (yeah that ship probably sailed pretty early in this thread) as it's come to my attention some colleagues may have worked out my handle. At some point I'll probably post in the pub though.

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[JAE]

That assumes they know what "you are worth". That is a very subjective and difficult number to arrive at.
Making a counter offer is only equivalent to admitting they don't know what the current market rate is for a given employee type.

Sometimes the offering firm is jacking up the offer just to get you to move to their firm....later keeping future salary adjustments such that they "catch up" over time and get you back to a market rate.
Sometimes the offering firm has an immediate unforeseen heavy workload and needs bodies fast...only to lay them off later.

Sometimes current firms don't realize that yearly adjustments based on inflation, and their vision of the market, get folks either too low or too high (I've seen both) and an outside offer shows them what others "might" value them at.

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[chris3eb]

Kenat - posting in the pub is for pub members only, but anyone can view the posts (unless there are some super secret ones that I don't know about), so be careful there too

 

[KENAT]

Hence not posting there yet, cheers.

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