HR ethics 11

[KENAT]

I'm 99.9% decided on this one but throwing it out for comment just in case my ethical standard are off kilter...

Say you've accepted an offer of employment from a new employer, and handed in your resignation.

Current employer says they want to make a counter offer but insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted.

Thoughts?

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[HamburgerHelper]

Don't.

You are currently with an employer that is trying to pay you as little as possible.

AS LITTLE AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

 

[TheTick]

Probably violating all manner of confidentiality expectations if you show the offer to your current employer.

 

[FoxRox]

Hmmmmm. I --don't think-- the dilemma is an ethical one. Just personal preference and strategy.

1.) Show the offer
2.) Tell them the number and say "believe it if you want"
3.) Don't show/tell and say "just offer me what I'm worth to you"

I don't think there is an ethical offense in any of these, but I might be missing something. I think it comes down to what you think will get you the best offer in the end. First question is would you stay for any amount? Are you leaving for some other reason than money in the first place? (No need to answer that, it's just what I would ask myself.)

An ethical dilemma would be if you choose number two and "round" the number a bit.

 

[FoxRox]

Of course, as TheTick says, if there are any written confidentiality statements on the offer it's a no-go.

 

[drawoh]

KENAT,

I was told a long time ago that you should not accept a counter offer from your current employer. Even if they beat your new offer, they know you are looking, and they do not trust you any more. The person telling me this was a head hunter, so he did have an interest.

--
JHG

 

[msquared48]

My immediate gut reaction was no.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[JAE]

Here's a perspective from "an employer" (me) who interviews, hires, and responds sometimes to employees getting an offer from outside.

Employees options/thoughts:
1. You may always be approached at times from other companies with offers. There's nothing wrong with listening, and perhaps receiving, an offer.
2. In fact receiving an offer is a healthy thing for you as it helps to correlate your abilities/value vs. marketplace salaries at that time.
3. Before accepting the offer, you need to weigh ALL the pros and cons of both positions - your current job and the new prospective job.
[red]4. You should decide up front whether you are going to discuss this with your current employer or make the choice independent of them.[/red]
5. If you choose independently of your current employer then stick to that decision and simply resign and be done with it. This is usually the case when you are in a bad position and simply want out.
6. Conversely, you may decide to allow your current employer to weigh in and this would include visiting with them to see how they may respond.
7. If your current employer offers to match or beat the other offer, then you can evaluate both positions and CHOOSE. This should involve more than just consideration of salary.

Current Employer options/thoughts:
1. Realize that ANY employee may get offers like this. Don't take it as disloyalty.
2. If an employee presents their situation and asks for a response, realize that they are giving you the privilege of deciding what to do.
3. You can decide to do nothing, match the offer, beat the offer, and/or alter the employee's status/position/environment.
4. You, as the employer, should realize that most free-market offers like this are...well...free market offers and they actually help you to understand what various types and levels of employees are worth.
5. The other firm's offer may be ridiculously high, and you may very well know your employee is not that valuable and choose to let them go their way.
6. If the employee is a valuable part of your business, you should then review with them all the pros and cons that YOU can think of between the two positions. You are sometimes in a better position to see these pros and cons than the employee.
7. Decide your response to your employee (if they invite one) as to adjustment in salary, change in role/responsibility or promotion.

I totally reject the notion that all employers somehow KNOW exactly what an employee is really worth. In my experience in engineering, keeping up with current wage levels for various engineering levels of experience and abilities is very difficult. NSPE, ACEC and others develop salary surveys but these only really give you a glimpse of what engineers are getting paid and also vary from city to city, state to state.

So the key on the counter offer question is that the employee needs to decide up front whether to even allow that kind of discussion with their current employer. (red item 4 above)
And that decision should also come into play with whether you accept the offer first, or wait to decide, discuss, etc.



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[KENAT]

Thanks all, the overall consensus matches with my 99.9% decision and not only had a number of the points mentioned above been considered but some even raised with current employer.

Technically it may not be hard core ethics issue if there is no explicit confidentiality agreement etc. but I feel it does touch on ones integrity - which as much as I tend to see the shades of gray is something not to be considered lightly.

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[FreddyNurk]

From a company point of view, they're probably trying to see if you're bluffing for a raise before they make a counter offer.

From a disclosure point of view, I'd tell them to stick it. They can either play the game and make an offer, or not. Provision of a 3rd party offer has no place in that discussion with your current employer. You've provided your resignation, the company can choose to either accept it or make a counter offer, but indicating that the counter offer hinges on disclosure of an offer is laughable.

 

[MikeHalloran]

...you've accepted an offer of employment...

So ends the discussion.

... insist on seeing the offer that you've accepted.

<expletives deleted>

You will feel really good when you wave at them in the rearview mirror.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[3DDave]

No good can come from sharing that info.

 

[KENAT]

Mike & Freddy, Yep.

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[GregLocock]

I agree overall. Bear in mind that if the offer with the new company is out of kilter with their present salary structure then you may not be seeing big raises until everyone else catches up. This is more or less the opposite equivalent of the usual advice, that if you stick with your old company having accepted a counteroffer you won't be seeing any raises.

Anyway, assuming you meant 'you've accepted an offer of employment' then the deal is done absent extraordinary circumstances.







Cheers

Greg Locock


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[KENAT]

Yep - I'm sure my integrity (i.e. going back on accepting new job) has a price (as in overall compensation & working conditions etc. not just $) but I'm very skeptical they'd reach it.

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[moltenmetal]

Just remember that an offer has no monetary value, and is not a contract. It can be changed after it has been accepted, and your only recourse is to walk. I learned that the hard way, on my first real job after graduation. Welcome to the fine, upstanding profession of engineering...

Best of luck KENAT!

 

[PEDARRIN2]

I agree with Mike Halloran that if you accept the offer, then you are bound by your integrity to follow through with your choice.

The time to compare/contrast is before you accept the offer.

 

[MadMango]

The only suspect ethics issue is your current employer even asking to see the offer.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

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[1gibson]

Let them counter blind, or not at all. Explain it wasn't your plan to extort money from them, and you know they don't want to pay more than they think you're worth. Both parties need to be happy with the salary or it won't work. Thank them for whatever the offer is and move on, try to leave the door open.

 

[KENAT]

Thanks again all, you're pretty much preaching to the choir. I've said or done almost exactly what many of you suggest.

I just wanted a sounding board to make sure I wasn't being overly scrupulous.

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