HVAC resources for "simple" side work 1

[ShaggyPE]

I recently passed the ME PE (machine design depth) and may have the opportunity to do some side work in "simple" HVAC design. Checking and stamping design calcs for HVAC in residential and small commercial buildings in California. I don't really have much of a background in HVAC, but I want to become competent in this area. What resources can anyone recommend? I assume an HVAC textbook is necessary... which one? I have the ASHRAE pocket handbook, should I get other ASHRAE books? Are there specific codes that I would need to get that are not in the ASHRAE books?

Does anyone recommend me NOT pursuing this path of work due to my lack of working experience? All input is appreciated.

Thanks.

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional

 

[flyrfan]

Check your state laws. In most states it is illegal to practice outside of your core competency.

In my opinion you would be violating the NSPE's Code of Ethics

http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html.

Your client's are expecting an experienced professional, not a "hack side-jobber". How would you feel if you went to a doctor who was practicing as a Onocologist(Cancer), but all of his prior experience was in Family Medicine....I bet you'd feel betrayed.

Stick with your current practice or train under HVAC PE's until you have mastered your profession.

 

[lowedogg]

i agree with flyrfan. there are a lot of ambiguous situations in HVAC that one does not find an answer for in any book. only experience will do.

ASHRAE does not write the code. codes may refer to ASHRAE documents, but the documents themselves are not code. The International Building Code is probably the most commonly used code family, but it depends from town to town and state to state.

 

[KiwiMace]

I also agree. You are open to a career ending lawsuit practising independantly outside your discipline, not to mention the pointing and laughing from your peers.

There is nothing moral or legal preventing you from doing the engineering (in fact I am a strong believer in cross-training for all engineers), BUT progress with a mentor and pass the checking and stamping on to someone with the right experience.

 

[ShaggyPE]

flyrfan,
I would not do the job if I felt I was being a hack. I want to become competent in the area. Problem is, I don't want to quit the day job to train under a PE if I can become competent through another method (be it continued education, self study etc).

lowedogg,
That is the sort of info I was expecting and hoping to hear.

KiwiMace,
good comments

Thanks all.

-Dustin
Professional Engineer
Certified SolidWorks Professional

 

[MintJulep]

ASHRAE offers a variety of continuing education options, from self-study, to on-line courses, classes at the semi-annual national meetings and single and multi-day classes throughout the year.

http://www.ashrae.org/education/

 

[willard3]

Consider the person who has just recently passed the HVAC PE exam and wants to do some "simple" machine design......

How would you look on that? You think there would be some liability there? Maybe some ethical problems......

 

[SAK9]

Willard,
A star for you for hitting the nail on its head!!

 

[flyrfan]

RE: "Problem is, I don't want to quit the day job to train under a PE if I can become competent through another method (be it continued education, self study etc)."

That's a BIG problem. I am not sure how long you've been in your industry, but in most technical fields (including your current one), obtaining knowledge of fundamentals is half of a professional's skill sets. You NEED practical experience with people that have years of experience that can pass on their knowledge. That training can't be read in a book or obtained in an ASHRAE webinar.

Under your plan, your clients will be the ginney pigs paying the price for your "inexperience". Once you get hit with an errors & omissions claim against your professional liability insurance policy it will happen)...you'll look back at my advice and know the truth was told.

We all make mistakes...I certainly have and still do. The only difference between my mistakes and yours will be order of magnitude.

I hope you succeed in the HVAC design profession...there seems to be a lack of interest from young engineers, for whatever reason, but the way you are planning to go about it is setting yourself up for failure. Good luck in which ever path you choose.

 

[DRWeig]

Shaggy,

I gotta go along with all the other posts. A fellow here a few years back was in the exact same situation as you. Brand new PE stamp, and he had an uncle who knew a guy who needed somebody to "just stamp some drawings" in Tennessee. All he had to do was buy a stamp pad and some ink, and he could make $1000 a month on the side without even having to design anything.

Well, he lost everything... I hope you don't fall into the same trap. "Checking and stamping design calcs..." as you stated in the original post, sounds real similar to me. The work is supposed to be performed either by you, or under your responsible charge. Checking somebody else's work does not count.

Goober Dave

 

[EddyC]

My experience when starting out or switching to a particular field in engineering (like HVAC), is the following:

a) Employed by an established company - 75% of what you need to learn to do a good job will be your responsibility.

b) Self-Employed - 100% of what you need to learn to do a good job will be your responsibility.

Perhaps others have been better mentored by their employers, but what I heard all the time was: "We don't have the time & money to mentor. You're an engineer, you figure it out. And if you mess up bad enough, we'll fire you." And I want to clarify that this occured to me several times as a new employee in a new field with a low salary, not as a highly paid seasoned veteran (And at 3 different ENR100 rated firms). My point: There may not be much advantage to working under the supposed supervision of an established firm/person.

 

[VerneE]

I started out working for a design/build firm and received a lot of industrial HVAC, Plumbing, & fire protection experience. Then worked as a facility engineering for a heavy industrial manufacturer - go a lot more practical stuff. Moved to the product design group there, picked up a few patents and learned many product mechanical engineers were too high in their ivory towers to understand the practical items of manufacturing or how the facility ran. Didn't fit too well there, was RIFF'd during a downturn and went back to consturction/consulting.

There are no good books - I've bought or read most - to learn from scratch, but many are good for those with experience to resolve some strange problems. Some of the best HVAC, plumbing & piping designers I've worked with had only experience, no degree or PE. Some of the most incompetent had a PE, but did good work when supervised by an experienced person. Sorry, no easy way out, "ya gotta pay your dues" or else you will find yourself being ripped apart by contractors that "only did what you told them to do" and losing your house and assets when you pay off the lawyers & disgruntled customers.

 

[lowedogg]

EddyC,
I am sorry that your experience went as you described, but I do not think that this is the typical situation. I have worked for medium-large sized (but well known) engineering firms and have always had plenty of people to learn from. Granted, a lot of that learning was in the form of designing something and then mopping up the red ink of a senior engineer after he reviewed it, but it was learning just the same. Part of being an engineer is learing how to effectively use your resources to get the job done. Often this does mean "figure it out". But there is always someone looking over your shoulder (whether you know it or not!) Any new engineers should not expect to walk in and have 6 months of straight straining, no company has time or budget for this. If you are working for an established firm, you have resources, you just have to find them. Choose your mentor carefully. A good one will make you look for your own answers before giving them to you. There is a world of difference between working on your own and working for a firm. Even an aggressive and ambitious engineer should have a minimum of 5-8 yrs of experience before going it alone. The construction industry is a very risky and litigious arena.

I completely agree with your opening statement: "75% of what you need to learn to do a good job will be your responsibility".

I completely disagree with your closing statement: "There may not be much advantage to working under the supposed supervision of an established firm/person."

 

[MAragorn]

Shaggy

Maybe things have changed since I started in 1977, but at that time the expertise of designing HVAC systems was as much art as science. The variety of possible situations you encounter is so large that it is very difficult to learn other than "by doing" while working under another experienced design professional. I guess that is why getting a PE requires years of doing just that in your specialty. I started "on the boards" for about 6 months working for designers and engineers learning how systems go together. Someday maybe I will finish that process.

A person who "hires a stamp" does so because the law requires the seal of a trained professional. Stamping a design out of your specialty relieves the other person of responsibility, but puts it on your shoulders.

If you want to learn how this works, maybe you can work some weekends doing CAD drawing for a local firm and gradually get your feet on the ground.

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Hey come on guys I don't think your being very nice.

To the OP: Congrats on passing the PE and also congrats on being interested in pursuing some moonlighting work.

Unlike the other posters, I see no reason you can't moonlight on the side for HVAC work. You just need to start with real simple jobs and as you get experience work your way up to more complicated jobs.

I didn't see anything in your post indicating you wanted to be a stamp for hire, or that you even wanted to stamp anything in the first place. I saw that you felt that you would like to do some HVAC work on the weekends.

I know at least one other engineer that does his - he and his Dad co-own a HVAC company in Utah.

So I say go for it - just start out simple and go more complicated over time. Only use your PE stamp when you're confident you're skilled in a subject area.

 

[dbarry14]

Try your local Carrier or Trane office. Often they will have "Air Conditioning" classes at night, around $400 or so. They will teach you the basics of HVAC design, equipment types (chillers, air handlers), system types (VAV, WSHP), duct design, controls, etc. Very informative for the basics. Also experience or collaboration with someone in industry would help a lot. Maybe a 50/50 fee split with an experienced HVAC designer until you understand more of what you are doing. Good luck.