I don't want to work overtime! 27

[warelephent]

hi all,

I'm in the process of finding a new job so I'm interviewing with some really interesting companies. I'm 23 years old and I'm trying to work in Raleigh, NC. Everything is going well so far and some of the smaller firms look like great opportunities to learn alot about structural engineering. There is only one problem with all of this: it seems to be industry standard that structural engineers work excessive overtime. These small firms mention that they expect 50 hrs/wk from me minimum.

I don't want to work more than 40 and I don't want the extra money. I may consider working at one of these firms anyway just because it seems so much better than some other civil jobs, but I really don't enjoy working that much and I've found that a couple of hours a day can really make a big difference with quality of life. I'm still deciding if this will cause me to turn down a job, but it seems that if I wanted to work ridiculous hours then I would go for a PhD. 50+ is just too much especially considering I'll be sitting in front of that great big computer screen for every one of those hours. I feel strongly about keeping it at 40, and I know if I agree to 50 then I could easily be looking at 60 once I start working there.

So this is the problem, and I'm sure that you-all know it even better than I do. The twist is that I havn't started working anywhere yet and so I'm still free to decide. My question is:

How outlandish would it be to try to negotiate 40 or maybe 45 hrs/wk as a condition of acceptance of an offer from a company that has mentioned that a typical workweek is 50+.

I don't care about the risk of losing the offer if there's a chance they might consider it. Also remember that its paid overtime that I'm turning down.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

-G

 

[EddyC]

If someone told me that I would have to work overtime continuously, I would ask them what are you going to do for me?
a) Give me more pay?
b) Give me professional experience?
c) Give me an end-of-year bonus?
d) Etc.?

My experiences with small firms has been very negative and I don't believe in any of their promises anymore. From what I have seen, the words "professionalism" "team player" "experience" are merely ways of extracting more free labor out of trustful folks, until they wise up and go packing. These types of employers are counting on a steady stream of new talent who take them at their word and accept such poor treatment.

 

[winpop123]

Wow - looks like OT is a hot topic so I'll lend my two cents
You state:
"How outlandish would it be to try to negotiate 40 or maybe 45 hrs/wk as a condition of acceptance of an offer from a company that has mentioned that a typical workweek is 50+."
My opinion is that it is certainly worth a try if you are set on only working 40 hours. Its always good to know up front what you are signing up for. And as some posters have already articulated it would be wise to ask what are the dynamics behind the 50 plus hours.

Now some commentary:
Understand that if you are even able to negotiate 40 hours a week at a place that expects 50 you are setting your self up from the get go not to get any advancement at that company. My guess is that the company just likes milking young guys for all they can get until they move on... that is very common. Best bet would be work there a year or two and move on.
You may be unable to find a company in your specific area that is willing to give you exactly what you want so you may have to grin and bear it as you are young with little experience. Once you get a little experience you can be in the drivers seat.

Contrary to some posters, I am not of the opinion that everyone has to consistently work lots of OT to be a "team player". There are many companies that pull that crap but there are also a few still left that are really good places to work. I left my last job because of too many hours. The poor guys there now are on 55 hours a week minimum with no paid OT. To me that was not acceptable.

Good luck with your job hunt.

 

[smitlor5]

Hello Warelephant,

It is good to have goals in your career. Stick to them as best as you can.

In the engineering fields, most engineers are paid salary, not hourly. So if you work 40 or 50 hours you still are paid the same. But the nature of the beast in many engineer fields 50 hours is standard.

I myself I work 40 hours, unless there is a deadline to make. In the long run there are benefits to work overtime once in awhile. Possible bonus check, extra time off, the boss gives you praise and sees you are a worker that does the job right.

When you move on to a new employer they will look at your experience and skills you have gained.

Many engineers I have worked with do get the time off for special events in their personal life.

One of the companies I worked for in Virginia Beach, most of the employees would get together for cookouts, play baseball and other activities after work.

So there are ups and downs, but keep to your guns and don't back down on your morals and character. As you do a great job on a project - you will be rewarded even if it's 40 or 50 hours.

Smitlor

 

[TStaples]

Hi warelephant,

As a veteran hiring manager in an automotive (not civil) engineering environment, I tell every person I interview about the culture of my organization. At my previous employer, 45 hours was considered a normal work week. The expectation is that as a salaried engineer, you will work whatever it takes to get the job done. Some weeks, it may only require 40 hours, some weeks it may be 50-60 hours, due to extenuating circumstances (deadline, customer driven last minute changes, failed tests, etc . . ..)

That being said, here is what you get in return:
1) Work on cutting edge automotive technology.
2) Opportunity to learn from multiple engineers with 20-25+ years expeience.
3) Flexibility in case of family/medical/other issues.
4) Pay that was 10-15% higher than average for equivalent experience.

You have to make sure that the tradeoff is fair. I think it is unfair for an employer to just state that 50 hours per week is expected, without also balancing the dialog with the benefits that counter the extra time. One other crucial point is that you, at 23 years old, and presumably fresh out of school, are an unknown commodity to a hiring manager. You have to go out and prove that you are capable of getting the job done. It is a very competitive work landscape you are operating in, and it is unlikely that you will excel, and prove to be invaluable, while only working 40 hours per week.



-Tony Staples

http://www.tscombustion.com

 

[winpop123]

tstaples seems to have hit the nail on the head.

To re-iterate or expand on the point. Most all engineering managers will expect you to work overtime if its required for a particular job or project. If the norm is 50 hours then expect to work 60 or more just to get ahead at the organization. If the hiring manager isn't willing to discuss hours expectations openly and honestly then look out for a rat.

 

[whyun]

As a salaried engineer, if you can get your job done under 40 hours, can you go home early?

Seriously, if a business is managed properly, 40 hours/week from each employee (which include the typical waste from inefficiencies) should be adequate to handle the work load. Good managers know in advance which months in the near future they anticipate heavier-than-normal work load and prepare in advance by increasing the efficiency level, hire additional staff, or forewarn the existing staff and recruit volunteers for overtime work.

 

[aardvarkdw]

Whyun,

That is usually spelled out in the contract. Ususally your contract specifies what the required work hours are. Whether overtime is mandatory or not is also most often in the contract.



David

 

[JRESE]

Tony is right about the importance of the culture of the firm. An employer that mentions 50 hour weeks is giving you a glimpse of that culture, but certainly not the whole picture. Realize that in smaller firms, the culture is more likely to reflect the values of the person at the top. As firms get bigger, the culture becomes a little more based on the values of the employees. So when you interview with the person at the top in smaller firms, you have a good opportunity to hear his/her take on the culture. Just realize that you are getting his view from the top.

A quick sidebar on small firm culture. I made the following same mistake twice shortly after starting out 30 years ago. I joined two different firms that only promoted engineers that had graduated from the same college as the principals. You can bet that they didn’t tell me that during the interviews.

So how do you get a look at the culture from where you will be sitting?

I don’t really have good answers, but my best suggestion would be to try to set up a lunch meeting with an employee or two of the firms you are considering. I would just come right out to the boss and say you want the perspective of your peers on the firm culture. Ideally, someone who is about three to five years into his career with the firm. I think that a lunch meeting away from the office is likely to be more revealing than meeting in the company conference room. Ask pointed questions: What are your responsibilities now? How satisfied are you with your growth here? How well are projects managed? Is communication satisfactory? Bonuses, raises, etc? Who has the ear of the boss (Lots of times, the real power in the smaller firms is in the hands of a bookkeeper / office manager type who has been with the firm since the beginning; and participates in decisions about bonuses, raises, etc). How varied has your experience been here? Have you asked for experience with buildings, yet they keep giving you bridges to work on? Small firms that are growing almost always have issues of ownership for the up-and-comer engineers. Is there an ownership transition plan in place? Has one been promised for years, but not occurred? Is there an ESOP?

From this and my previous post, you might realize that I have some passion about this. My son is just a couple of months away from graduating with his B.S. in Engineering, and he’s started looking at jobs. So, I’ve been spending some time thinking about and talking about these issues with him. Looking back over my career, it clear that the first couple of years of experience are very important.

I wish you luck, and keep us updated.

Jim Emanuel, S.E.

 

[MadMango]

The OP has stated they are getting paid for the overtime, so being taken advantage of is not the issue.

If warelephent can be selective in what opportunities of employment he will accept as a first job, then he is in a better position than most that I know. It would be nice to see some feedback.

[green]"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."[/green]

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[GrimesFrank]

Jim,
Where were you when I was starting my career?

I had my Dad, grizzled old english millwright, who said, "Damn it boy just get your nose through the door, keep you head down and to the grindstone and you'll be set for life."

As wise as the man was, job hunting was not his strong point. It took me getting burned by opportunistic managers a few times to start to come around to your thinking.

For my next job I am definitely taking out a colleague to get the real skinny, thats good for any point in a career........thank-you.

Frank "Grimey" Grimes
You can only trust statistics 90% of the time.

 

[EngJW]

I never work overtime and will move mountains to avoid it. In the beginning, some 30 years ago, I was required to work some but I can honestly say that I never worked a single hour of overtime that was necessary, productive, or worth it. In my opinion, only disorganised time wasters need to work long hours (not counting the people who are forced to by the boss).

I'm talking about unpaid overtime which is what it is in most cases. I did work at a place where a certain group screwed off all week then discovered a Friday afternoon crisis, and had to work 12 hour days over the weekend. I believe they had made a special deal where they were getting paid for it.

I admit to being a clock watcher. If I didn't, I would end up cheating my employer out of several hours a week. Life is short. Try to enjoy it.

 

[graybeach]

I'm with you warelephant. Life is too short. You might want to see if there are openings in any government agencies. I work for one and rarely work overtime. The exception is during construction. If work can't progress until I provide a drawing, RFI answer or stamped shop drawing, etc. I work as long as necessary. Once I even had to ride a subway at 9:00 pm to get a giant set of prints from a copy center to a fedex office.
But even when I worked for a private structural engineering company, I did not work much overtime. It was not an option because I had small babies. It probably looked bad to my employer at first, but I learned to get the job done in 40 hours.

 

[HgTX]

Structural? If you don't mind bridges rather than buildings, you can work for the state DOT and won't have to do much overtime.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[atlas06]

"Remember, the boss has paved the road only to his driveway"
From Bill Cosby at a graduation ceremony.

Start paving the road to your own driveway.

 

[MedicineEng]

I think that warelephent was killed in the "OT war"...
We never heard from him again...

 

[epoisses]

@ENGJW
"only disorganised time wasters need to work long hours"

Well that statement is valid only in an ideal world. It would be the same as saying that only disorganised time wasters are in a hurry because organised people have organised things perfectly so never need to hurry. That is just not true.

If I think back to the time when I was a process engineer in a chem plant responsible for the well-being of several process units, there were times when the operation was completely messed up by whatever phenomenon (the first thing to do was usually to find out by what) and every MINUTE the operational problem lasted literally cost thousands of dollars.

If this happens on 5 to 5 Friday afternoon, you can't just let everything drop out of your hands, step out of the office and come back 3 days later. You are expected to solve it, it is your job to solve it and if you have the slightest honour as a process engineer you will (@#$% add any expression) solve it even if it takes several hours.

It's all about having a sense of responsibility. It's somewhere between being a civil servant and running your own businss.

 

[aardvarkdw]

Exactly epoisses,

That should be rewritten,
"only disorganized time wasters and those that work for or under disorganized time wasters or those who's job involves repairing unforseen problems need to work long hours"

David

 

[DJKeng]

Perhaps the company is assuming that you would like the option of overtime w/ pay. They may be using this as a way to attract you!

 

[Comcokid]

There are other reasons that overtime is required of engineers. There is a famous quote a manager made in Tracy Kidder's book (1981 nonfiction) about a group of engineers tasked with designing a new minicomputer "The Soul of a New Machine. The project was being compromized by lack of equipment and resources but management still wouldn't provide what was needed.

"Logic Analyzers cost $10,000. Engineering overtime is free."

The reasons that engineers frequently work overtime is lack of resources. I have almost never had the equipment needed to do a job efficiently. Many times it is not a lack of corporate money, but corporate permission to buy or rent what is needed to do the job. However, they always seem to have money when it comes to giving executive bonuses.

 

[warelephent]

wow, you guys are amazing. These are alot of points I didn't even consider that are being brought up, and I'm glad to hear some arguments on both sides. I'm starting to really get a feel for whats reasonable and where people are drawing the lines on both ends of this OT dilemma just from this thread. Thank you all for your input and personal experiences and situations. I feel like I just cheated at life, getting more knowledge than I'm supposed to have! It also seems well understood that this is a philisophical, and not a laziness issue. Thank you for not yelling at me for being lazy!

I'm laughing at GrimesFrank because my dad would say the same exact thing: "work like hell and get your foot in the door!" I've been hearing some people say to pay my dues, and I wouldn't mind, I'd love to; but I have a vague impression that the young guys I know now that are working long hours are going to keep working those long hours until forever. And I see alot of older guys working the longest, didn't they pay their dues or did they forget? My dad paid everybody's dues, but he still works insane hours as a construction foreman and lives in a motel 80% of his life so I learned my lesson vicariously through him I guess. If a certain industry doesn't support my priorities now, I think its best for me to try another rather than to get tons of experience only relavent to that industry and expect things to get better. After all, there are so many different kinds of civil engineering.

I'm definantly going to take the advice of trying to find out why 50 hours is standard there. I want to go back in or call to try to get somebody talking to get a better feel for the culture and attitudes. Thanks JRESE. I have another interview so I'm going to see how it goes there. I may even take graybeach's advice and send a resume to a government agency. I'll keep you all posted...

thanks again,

W E