I don't want to work overtime! 27

[warelephent]

hi all,

I'm in the process of finding a new job so I'm interviewing with some really interesting companies. I'm 23 years old and I'm trying to work in Raleigh, NC. Everything is going well so far and some of the smaller firms look like great opportunities to learn alot about structural engineering. There is only one problem with all of this: it seems to be industry standard that structural engineers work excessive overtime. These small firms mention that they expect 50 hrs/wk from me minimum.

I don't want to work more than 40 and I don't want the extra money. I may consider working at one of these firms anyway just because it seems so much better than some other civil jobs, but I really don't enjoy working that much and I've found that a couple of hours a day can really make a big difference with quality of life. I'm still deciding if this will cause me to turn down a job, but it seems that if I wanted to work ridiculous hours then I would go for a PhD. 50+ is just too much especially considering I'll be sitting in front of that great big computer screen for every one of those hours. I feel strongly about keeping it at 40, and I know if I agree to 50 then I could easily be looking at 60 once I start working there.

So this is the problem, and I'm sure that you-all know it even better than I do. The twist is that I havn't started working anywhere yet and so I'm still free to decide. My question is:

How outlandish would it be to try to negotiate 40 or maybe 45 hrs/wk as a condition of acceptance of an offer from a company that has mentioned that a typical workweek is 50+.

I don't care about the risk of losing the offer if there's a chance they might consider it. Also remember that its paid overtime that I'm turning down.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

-G

 

[IRstuff]

There's paying dues and there's just bad habits.

I had a manager who simply couldn't seem to let go of doing fun engineering stuff and would spend 10 hrs a day, 6 days a week working.

TTFN

 

[EngJW]

It starts with just a couple of hours to get some work done, then you get more work and it is every day, then since you are such a good company man here is a little more to keep you going through the week end, and certainly your family would understand if you bring some home.

Maybe the only difference between an alcoholic and a workaholic is just different opportunities.

 

[ejc]

Fabulous deep thought EjgJW.

Going to have to use that one.

ejc

 

[josephv]

There was an interesting stat I saw one day that said that the amount of unpaid overtime worked by professional in North America alone was in the billions of dollars.

By law, managers don't have to be paid overtime.

I can see why it is expected for salaried personnel to work past 40 hours a week. But my take is if anyone wants my services, they have to pay.

 

[JohnNabors]

I'm fortunate to work for a company that firmly believes in 8 hour days and forty hour weeks. In fact, I will probably come in for half a day on Saturday this week, but that will be the first OT I've worked in months.

John Nabors

"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." - Friedrich von Schiller

 

[stanier]

How many mistakes are made by overtired engineers?

How many hours would an engineer have to work if he/she didnt have to go to interminable meetings, be trained in environmental/social/OH&S/quality or read emails about socila events/stationery/compnay good news stories etc etc Issues that are really commonsense and can be gathered from a well written manual? About half what he/she does now I suspect.

Work for yourself and charge by the hour with a premium after 40 hours. That slows their demands down and you will find you dont get asked to all those non engineering BS sessions and are left alone to engineer. If you really want the BS put up with the 60+ hours

Geoffrey D Stone FIMechE C.Eng;FIEAust CP Eng

http://www.waterhammer.bigblog.com.au

 

[BJC]

I know of a couple of firms that work 4 10s about 5 months a year. Neither had to advertise for help, they had waiting lists. They had all the work they could do and could pick their clients.

 

[ziggi]

BJC, I can understand why, I'd love to work 4 10 hour days a week and have long weekends all the time, plus you save on commute times.

As an aside, I found that nearly all fresh engineers have very little work to do for the first few months. I've never understood the concept of overtime myself, I've worked paid OT before out in the field and had no problems (b/c it was paid and b/c I could see the reasons for it).

In an office environment, OT should really not exist, I think that most people just become distracted too easily.
Studies show that after a phone call or email, it takes a person 5 minutes to return to their pre-phone call state of mind. 10 calls and emails a day add up pretty quickly.

Ignoring phone calls and email during a certain time period has been a big time saver for me, I get so much work done in the hour or two in which I do so.

I also find it difficult to respect those people who make sure that everyone knows they are working 12 hour days, 6 days a week. It signals inefficiency, low self-esteem and general time wasting and goofing off to me.

Granted I will willingly work OT, unpaid even, if need be, just as my employer understands that I may need to skip out unexpectedly on occasion.

And yes I am typing this at work, with a mound of work to do and I will have it all done on time, with no OT, after I brew myself a cup of nice hot tea.

 

[ziggi]

warelephant, as an aside, just remember two things:

1) life is a marathon, not a sprint,
I've seen people whom are 35 driving BMWs, but b/c of the stresses they've endured, they look 45, I've also seen people driving BMWs whom are 45, but look 35.

2) success doesn't need to be measured in monetary gains. In fact, monetary wealth is a purely western invention, which seems to have gained credence throughout the world, although in relation to the length of time people have existed, a philosophy of monetary wealth superseding all is just a blip.

 

[epoisses]

Money is all but a western invention...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_money

Homo sapiens being a hunter/collector, pursueing wealth, as in owing things or in owing money to temporary replace those things, is more of a genetically than a culturally driven thing. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be wealthy. There is something wrong with being 35 and looking like 45 though.

 

[ziggi]

epoisses,
touche, I guess I'm reading the wrong anthropology texts.
I never said that wealth was a bad thing, harming yourself or others to be wealthy, that's another moral issue altogether.
Overworking oneself has many consequences, most importantly, the stress and lack of sleep associated with long hours lowers your life expectancy. I'd rather live longer than richer.

I guess the point I want to make is that there's more to living than money. Too many people have bought into the idea that they must drive nice cars, have a cookiecutter home in the burbs and have two kids who both go off to Harvard or MIT. They work themselves to the bone to achieve this and in most cases all they achieve is heart disease, a divorce and screwed up kids.

Maybe I'm just weird b/c I don't want to commute and thus live close to work, within walking distance, don't want a giant house in the burbs and want three kids whom I don't expect to go to Ivy league unless THEY want to.

 

[epoisses]

OK I think we agree on that!

 

[EngJW]

Ziggy-

We must know the same people. I know a guy who brings up in every meeting how much work he is doing at home and how he has to spend holidays and weekends to get his work done. Just today I watched as he made another commitment and took on a project that he could easily have turned down. For a while I felt bad for him, but I think some people just function that way or maybe that's what they do for enjoyment.

 

[monkeydog]

EngJW,
Believe it or not, there are people out there, that function better when they have a lot of work. My old (ex) boss and another friend is like that. Taking on extra work, working crazy hours. Both full of energy, and loving every day.
I am thankfull for those type of people, because they are the ones that bring in the projects that I end up working on. Without them, no work, and the whole overtime issue goes away.

 

[revdode]

<i>Maybe I'm just weird b/c I don't want to commute and thus live close to work, within walking distance, don't want a giant house in the burbs and want three kids whom I don't expect to go to Ivy league unless THEY want to.</i>

Ziggi

You are not alone, although achieving this can prove difficult especially in the current economic environment. I used to work 50-70 hours every week, because I coped my work load kept increasing, I kept going until I had little life beyond work and vacations. Fifteen years of that does some damage although in my case I quit (started working no more than 40 hour weeks) because I had kids and wanted to see them growing up.
It was never about money for me, I just enjoyed my work, and enjoyed being busy, unfortunately for a while I forgot that it was only a job. When times get tight you find employers have no difficulty remembering the nature of your relationship with them.

 

[ziggi]

Don't get me wrong, I like to have plenty of work to do, the faster the pace the better.

However there is a limit, my theory, a salary pays you for a 40 hour work week, with the occasional long day or three when necessary. As such I will do whatever amount of work I can do in that time, once again with the occasional long day. Making people constantly work 50+ hours/week is operating in bad faith in my opinion, unless proper remuneration is provided. Case in point, doctors work insane hours but are compensated very well.

Maybe I'm just selfish (which I am) but the only way I would gladly work 80 hour weeks was if it was my own private enterprise. I wouldn't mind it b/c I can see my family anytime I want (I am the boss after all), I can work any hours I want (almost) and I wouldn't actually be working, just doing my own thing and getting paid for it.

I'm of the younger generation, the one without loyalties to companies. Seeing your elders get the proverbial kick in the objects by a faceless corporation really sucks the motivation out of you, I think 80% of my generation feels this way.

 

[JohnNabors]

I'm with you, Ziggi. There was a time when I would cheerfully work 50 to 70 hour weeks but I have better things to do now. I never had kids of my own and now I have a wonderful girlfriend whose kids have begun to call me Dad and the grandkids call me Grandpa. I'm not going to chain myself to this computer for hours on end when I have my hunny to spend time with and kids to play with. Besides, work is for people who don't know how to fish.

John Nabors

Two wrongs do not make a right. Three rights, however, make a left.

 

[mechmama]

What are your thoughts on a firm who requires 45 hours/week, and the culture is 50+? Is it even legal to require 45 hours?

I'm considering a position at such a place because of the opportunity, but would be leaving a very comfy 40 hour week job at a place where people actually stop work and take 2 - 10 minute breaks everyday (even though these are in the same industry, same town). Now, that said, I still see all the players at my current job putting in more than 40 hours. My fear is that the players at the other place have to put in 60.

 

[Beggar]

Excessive work hours and the willingness to accept more work than you can reasonably do is, from my view, the result of the insecurity of our engineering jobs. Many of us work/worked for places where employment is very tenuous and have to do what you can to try to separate yourself from everybody else. When some people start to work longer hours, you're sort of forced to or else be viewed as a less desirable employee.

The few folks who are superstar engineers or who have a very specialized, hard-to-find skill set don't need to conform so much. The middle-age folks who are good, solid engineers but also replaceable, have to do anything they can to look good beyond just doing a good job in the allotted 40 hours.

Sometimes, though, that's still not enough and when things get tight, out you go. That's when you realize the folly of that approach and perhaps reconsider the wisdom of an engineering career.

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[HgTX]

High-powered careers in finance and law are even worse.

Hg

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