I Hate Drawings!!! 12

[Bester2]

I need to rant. Why do we have drawings in the 3-D world? I am so tired of arguing about the line thickness/ the font size/ the angle of the leader line or all of the other BS that goes along with creating drawings. Then you issue a fabrication to someone and they inevitably call me back asking how does this thing go together. Then I send a packaged assembly to them and there is no more questions. All they needed in the first place was the model with the associated material. Weld callouts can be called out as annotations, for that matter they should just be physically modeled. And when it comes to assembly, the model is the easiest way to show how things come together. Today you can even create video clips that can be animated with notes to show how things come together. I worked for a company once where I heard that an entire division was designed paperless. In order to do this they made all of their suppliers run the same CAD package. This allowed them to created annotations in the models along with associated views to make the parts. Do places like this really exist? If so dose anyone else see this becoming this way in the future. Dose anyone else agree with me that drawings are a waste of time? Does anyone think that their mechanical task is better served in a two dimensional world? Am I doomed to suffer in a world of arbitrary existence??

One extremely frustrated engineer that is probably looking for a new career!!!


SW 2007 SP 5.0

 

[ctopher]

11echo,
You shouldn't generalize.
For the past 15 years, every machine shop and weld shop that I have worked with has worked from 3D models. The paper drawings were only for reference and inspection. Ever heard of CAD/"CAM"?
If you work out in a field where there are no computers, paper drawings are a necessity.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
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[KENAT]

11echo, while I think drawings will be around for a long time you can't ignore the fact there are sectors, or at least sub-sectors, where they are rapidly becoming history, at least in the classic sense.

The model gets sent from the CAD software to CAM software which goes to the machine. No the machinist doesn't get a drawing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[TheTick]

Try and get prototype weldments without a drawing.

 

[KENAT]

Come on Tick, you know me better than that surely. If we get rid of drawings I'm out of a job ;-) but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact MBD is increasing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[TheTick]

The move may eventually happen. I predict we will go from inept design documentation in 2D to inept design documentation in 3D.

 

[11echo]

Kenat ...I don't know of ANY sector that requires construction people to build/fabricate directly from a 3D model! In each and every case the 3D model is converted to 2D drawings to pass on to these people. YES there are some places where a 3D design is plugged into a computer and the computer makes the part. But even in these cases I'm guessing more then 75% time a tech is looking at a 2D drawing to make sure the part is being made correctly.
...Is 3D here to stay? Yes it is, but it's not the "fix-all" that the computer people claim ...it IS NOT! And you better hang on to those 2D drawing skills!!!

 

[SnTMan]

I read an article in Mechanical Engineering awhile back about all these old solid models owned by, I believe, the DOD that were in danger of all the data being lost because of.....incompatible software. Interesting how the meaning of the word "legacy" has changed from "something of value preserved from the past" to "worthless crap nobody wants to support".

No compatibility issues with paper drawings.

Regards,

Mike

 

[ctopher]

The DOD requires CAD models and paper drawings stored in a vault. CAD files are backed up from the local server AND onto an off-site server.
Any company that is not up to 3D models is behind the times. True paper drawings will be around for a little longer, but are fading fast.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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[KENAT]

11echo, I'm lead to believe by some in the aerospace & automotive industries that they do have at least portions of products that are truely 3D with no 2D drawings. As to your claims about assembly I have seen (and played with) software that creates 3D computarized assembly instructions and happen to know there are real world users of this software.

If you'd read my earlier posts you'd see that I don't claim MBD is a fix all. I actually have significant concerns about aspects of it etc. I also agree wholeheartedly with Tick that in many cases we'll go from crummy 2D documentation to crummy 3D documentation. One of the things I haven't got my head round is how to effectively 'check' MBD, and I don't just mean running an interference check on the nominal size models at the assy level.

I certainly think industries with significant 'field' work, such as civil or your sector, will be 2D for a long long time to come.

As to the DODs concern, that's why IGES was created, limited though it may be. One of the limits I see with MBD is we/they need to come up with a truely standard 'generic' format that keeps Model Based Dimensioning etc.

What is it with me getting caught in the middle ground all the time between opposing view points trying to find the middle road. We've got those towting that drawings are all but dead on one side and those saying you can't do it by the model on the other. I believe the truth is somewhere between these 2 extremes and varies a lot by industry/industry sector and even size of company/location in supply chain.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

Kenat,
Well said (written)!

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
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[HgTX]

"The paper drawings were only for reference and inspection."

*ONLY* for inspection?? Inspection is hardly insignificant. Needing paper for inspection is not at all the same thing as not needing paper.

I think we're a ways away from the abovementioned rollup sheet monitor for situations where paper is still needed. Especially one hardy enough to be dropped, one which stands up to repeated washings after being poked at with dirty fingers, and which can still be written on with stylus after being poked at with dirty fingers. And cheap enough to be replaced when it gets stepped on or has something splattered on it.

In a CAM environment, I can see paper going away. Anyplace where people are doing the work, it's gonna be quite a while. And I don't see every single industry going entirely to CAM, either.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[ctopher]

In the Civil/Environmental discipline's, I don't see paper drawings going away either.
The aerospace, automotive and mechanical discipline's have already moved into the direction of going paperless.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
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ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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[drawoh]

KENAT,

I am not surprised about the automotive and aerospace industries not using drawings. Much of their stuff is curvy, and hard to document in[ ]2D.

Most of my stuff is machined, sheet metal, or welded in small quantities. The shapes are orthogonal, and 2D[ ]drawings are effective. Right now, our machine shops ask for DXF copies of our drawings.

Sheet metal shops ask for our SolidWorks models, and they mess with the K[ ]factors and such. Their is intelligence in the 3D[ ]model that makes their lives easier. The 2D[ ]drawing still defines the part, and is used to direct the bending process.

There is an area where 2D[ ]drawings work very well.

JHG

 

[KENAT]

Interestingly, the sample 3D work instructions I saw were actually prepared by an industrial valve manufacturer. So it's not just automotive & aerospace though they certainly appear to be leading the charge.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

KENAT,
True. I used to design control valves for refineries, etc.
It was ALL 3D. The 2D drawings were only for customers that required them to do site work.
Today a lot of them use laptops to bring up the 2D and 3D files.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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[11echo]

...As I said, I've never seen a welder or backhoe operator working from a lap top! I concede that 3D may work very well in SOME disciplines, mine isn't one of them! I find 3 things wrong with 3D programs:
1. They are becoming a crutch, so that lesser qualified people can try to function (PLEASE …I'm talking in general here, NOT pointing fingers!)
2. 3D suffers the same problem with ALL computer viewed "models" ...limited viewing capacity. Anybody dealing with computer regularly in their occupation KNOWS this limitation.
3. There are too many 3D programs! In the design world there are limited "qualified" people ...but it now becomes more important as to what computer program you know, as apposed to discipline knowledge! …Pre-1990 I could get a job at ANY company that required piping designers ...now it's what program I know then my piping experience is looked at. Am I suppose to be proficient in 5 -8 3D programs? (FYI, I have 2 under my belt at present …but interesting enough I’m not using them).

There's alot of issues in the way of a 3D takeover. Will it come? Probably ...BUT I’ll bet anyone here on this forum and in my discipline will not have to worry about in their occupational lifetime! AND in the mean time, as I suggested earlier, I'd keep up with your 2D drawing skills! ...My $0.02

 

[ctopher]

11echo,

In the future, you probably will "never" see a welder or a backhoe operator using a laptop!

Do you know Jon Banquer?

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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[ewh]

Gee, I go away for a day and all hell breaks loose.
I am in an industry where MBD is making inroads. The intent in my previous points were NOT to say drawings are no longer necessary, but to emphasize that IT IS possible today to have a drawingless system in place, depending on the industry.
What fired me up are the posts that say that it is impossible, that drawings will always be necessary, that we need them because that is the way it has always been done.
Anytime you use an absolute, you open yourself to debate.

Technology is advancing at a tremendous rate, accelerating faster than at any other time in history. We really shouldn't be too surprises at what we may see twenty years down the road. Twenty years ago, who here would have imagined these fora? To say it ain't gonna happen is just closing your mind to the possibilities.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - [small]Thomas Jefferson [/small]

 

[tys90]

Within 10 years, the majority of the A/E industry will be producing intelligent 3D building models with 2D generated more or less automatically. The whole BIM ideology is the future. To respond about employers looking at what programs you know. It makes sense that an engineer should be proficient in any computer program they use as a design tool. This is incredibly important when you start using 3D models to help design. If you understand both the discipline knowledge and the knowledge to produce a 3D model and interpret it then it opens up a lot of possibilities in the design process.

 

[KENAT]

ewh, well said.

2D will be around for a long long time, even in some of the areas that are more suitable for MBD in its current form. If nothing else all the legacy data that's in 2D or 3D/2D hybrid of some form will be around for a while.

11echo I think I agree, at least partially, with all 3 of your 11 Sep 08 18:10 points. In fact to some extent they match arguments I've made before about issues with purely 3D. However your earlier posts made claims about people not really using 3D that just aren't universally true. Making those claims detracts from some otherwise very good points you make and may tend to make people that know less about it think your are some kind of Luddite.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...