I Hate Drawings!!! 12

[Bester2]

I need to rant. Why do we have drawings in the 3-D world? I am so tired of arguing about the line thickness/ the font size/ the angle of the leader line or all of the other BS that goes along with creating drawings. Then you issue a fabrication to someone and they inevitably call me back asking how does this thing go together. Then I send a packaged assembly to them and there is no more questions. All they needed in the first place was the model with the associated material. Weld callouts can be called out as annotations, for that matter they should just be physically modeled. And when it comes to assembly, the model is the easiest way to show how things come together. Today you can even create video clips that can be animated with notes to show how things come together. I worked for a company once where I heard that an entire division was designed paperless. In order to do this they made all of their suppliers run the same CAD package. This allowed them to created annotations in the models along with associated views to make the parts. Do places like this really exist? If so dose anyone else see this becoming this way in the future. Dose anyone else agree with me that drawings are a waste of time? Does anyone think that their mechanical task is better served in a two dimensional world? Am I doomed to suffer in a world of arbitrary existence??

One extremely frustrated engineer that is probably looking for a new career!!!


SW 2007 SP 5.0

 

[11echo]

ctopher ...Jon Banquer? You know that name sounds familiar, but I don't know from where!??

KENAT ...Well I had to look up "Luddite" ...checked to see if I should be offended! ...Turns out I'm not, nor do I think I match that accusation.
Am I touting destruction of all 3D programs? ...NO!
Do I think there is no place for 3D programs? ...NO!
Do I think 3D programs have hurt the industry? …YES!
Do I think 3D programs have helped the industry more then it has hurt it? …I don’t know!
I do know that 3D programming have divided the already limited force of qualified people (as I stated earlier) this has caused a farther problem in quality by forcing companies to look overseas for cheaper (less skilled) labor force (again I’m talking in general here).
The other aspect I haven’t touched on is what some computer programmer idea of good documentation is a far cry from what I’ve been taught years ago.
2D drawings are still used by MOST construction people work wide, be they directly generated or turned out by some 3D program. So at present you ARE going to need your 2D capabilities for sometime yet. And for 3D in general, I think it has a long way yet to go before it become mainstream in ALL disciplines!

 

[KENAT]

OK, I must just have misunderstood your first 2 posts. I'm sick of arguing with you over something that I think we agree 90+% on.

Part of the apparant misunderstanding is probably due to the industry sectors we are in/have knowledge of. Perhaps your comments were meant to be specific to the field you're in and similare 'construction' fields.

I'm not some MBD evangelist and strongly disagree/take issue with a lot of what the actual OP says, or at least what I perceive to be behind it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

3D HAS become mainstream in ALL disciplines...except Civil/Environmental/and some Petroleum.
On-site construction people use paper drawings, but the architects and designers that supply the drawings use 3D.
If you want to continue with 2D because "That's how you've always done it", you are WAY behind the times.
Take a trip to most universities and look at what they are being taught. Basic engineering is sometimes taught AutoCAD 2D, but a lot of them are taught 3D, because that is where the world is now.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ajack1]

I totally agree with ewh on this one, it really gets my back up when people say it cannot be done and give a list of reasons.

You might as well give a list of reasons why it is impossible to build a production car that is capable of travelling at 100 mph or a plane that can seat over 50 people. That does not mean everyone has the need or ability to do it, but it can be done now and is on a daily basis.

I also totally agree it is industry specific; yes a CD with a 3D model on it is as much use to a welder stuck in the wilderness without a laptop as a 2D drawing is to a robot on an automotive production line.

I am still yet to be convinced that everything has to be 3D, for example a wiring diagram, unless space is an issue is yards or even miles of cable better shown in 2D as a representation or as a real life size 3d model?

Yes the non-compatibility of CAD systems is a problem and I don’t see that going away anytime soon, you only have to look as far as Solidworks and Catia to see that, but again it can be overcome. Is it really that different from two companies working on the same project where one is English speaking and the other German?

As with any “new” technology it does present challenges, but if we as engineers did not take them on we would still be living in caves and walking to the nearest river to get our water. Surely the whole joy of engineering is saying how can that be done and finding a way, not sitting back and saying that cannot be done, even if others are doing it?

 

[ctopher]

Some info from Sept issue of Cadalyst...

http://manufacturing.cadalyst.com/manufacturing/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=547316

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[11echo]

ctopher ...You know I spent alot of years in school on how a drawing should look, that plus a fair amount of time on the board operation under that same rule. SO WHY should I accept 3D generated drawings that don't come near that goal! AND that's the problem; schools are teaching 3D drafting thinking this will make a good draftsman/designer! It does NOT! It makes a computer person that thinks the computer program is more important then the depiction of the design or engineering concept!

Can a 3D program be use to generate a piping drawing/ ...YES!

Why do they use 3D programs if documentation is NOT as clear as hand generated drawing? ...Because the powers that be don’t have to think about what they are looking at. They don't have to be able to "read" a drawing; they can just look at a picture!

Who is most adversely affected by 3D programming? ...Construction people, they don't get the luxury of building from 3D computer screens, they have to build from the 2D generated drawing from the 3D programs. These are the ultimate end-users of the 3D program ...does it make sense they should be getting the best product from a 3D program? ...I think so!

AGAIN …my $0.02!

 

[ewh]

I think that you're preaching to the choir about CAD drawings vs board drawings, 11echo.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - [small]Thomas Jefferson [/small]

 

[ctopher]

11echo,

I never questioned any person's ability to do drafting...different subject.
Anyone that has drafting training or experience should be able to create drawings, CAD or not. If you want to learn 3D CAD or stick to strictly board drafting or 2D CAD, it is up to you.

Board drafting is in the past for a lot of companies. 3D CAD is here now in will be in the future, like it or not.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[11echo]

I'm NOT advocating doing board drawings! I like the abilities a computer give a person ...MUCH better then on the board! My concern is the quality & composition of the drawing! The problem (as I see it) that in educational intuitions there is an easy short-cut in drafting ...why teach hand generated skills when you're not going to use it?! ...But that hand generate skill also leads to how drawing are put together ...or composition! The other item I point at (as I have already stated) is the graphic generation from 3D model to 2D drawings that construction people have to use.
I'm going to post 2 images here; the first is a 3D generated view.

This next image is a 2D generated view of the same thing (note there are some differences in the object)

This is a good example of what I'm talking about, the 3D program takes longer to generate and the graphics are of a poorer quality. However the 2D generated view is faster and graphics is far better. So if you were a construction guy looking at 2D drawings, which would you like to build from?

 

[KENAT]

You can create good & bad drawings with 2D or hybrid 2D/3D. I've even seen some bad hand drawings. I nearly said could create something that looks better then either of those using hybrid 2D/3D faster then I could in 2D but I've mostly done 2D/3D not pure 2D so that may not be a fair comparison.

I will agree that many universities and other training emphasize what the CAD can do not what you should do with it. You learn all the buttons but get little instruction in how to lay our a clear, well defined drawing, dimension it properly ...

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

Schools only teach the basics because every discipline uses it differently.
For mechanical engineering, I would never create a drawing per your pics. I do not work with civil or arch drawings.
Drawings as 2D or 3D are 100% up to the company and employee training. Good drawings can be created in both 2D and 3D.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[KENAT]

Ctopher, trouble is no one these days seems to teach the basics. I can appreciate not wanting to get caught up in details on an introductory course. Also if it's just a CAD class on how to use a specific program fair enough.

Trouble is, most younger drafters & engineers doing drafting seem to have taken a CAD class (often not the same one we want them to use though) and maybe a very brief introduction to drawings course if we're really lucky. However, few of them have been taught how to properly lay out a drawing, detail it, tolerance it...

So we effectively have to teach them how to draw, which would be fair enough if management would let us do this, but they think a few day CAD course or even just some online tutorials is all they need.

While 3D CAD may be part of the problem it's not all of it or even the root of it.

Anyway, rant over.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

My son is in college. Major- Aerospace Engineering, minor-Materials Engineering.
He will be taught AutoCAD and SolidWorks. Yes it is basics, but not drafting. I believe all engineers should have training in drafting. Most of the engineers I have worked with have no clue about drafting and standards, then parts are waisted because the part is wrong.
With 3D modeling, the part can be tested within CAD, sent to a 3D printer for tests, and sent directly to the CNC/NC machine. The drawings are used for reference and inspection. Every project I worked on for all of the aerospace companies, military, and NASA were all worked this way and were accepted by all.
I think it has been maybe 10 years since I created a 2D drawing for use in actual machining, although I have checked them.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[KENAT]

ctopher, that still doesn't fix tolerance issues etc which is where I see a lot of the problems. To do pure 3D properly you still need to spec tolerances one way or another.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

Kenat,
Yes that is true. The tolerance can also be built into the 3D model.
Either way I see major tolerance issues all the time, especially after purchasing/marketing gets a hold of the drawings/models and change the tolerance to save cost!

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ewh]

Here is a small example of how one of our customers handle.
I admit it looks messy, but everything is defined and downstream users can read it with the correct software.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - [small]Thomas Jefferson [/small]

 

[KENAT]

Yeah I've seen what our software (the other Siemans software) can do with PMI. I haven't got my head around it yet but doesn't mean it can't be done.

That's what leads you to one of the other issues mentioned above though, your vendor needs the correct software.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[KENAT]

Vaguely relevant

http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.007/resources/drawing/Drawing as Thinking.pdf

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[ctopher]

KENAT,
Very good article!

Interesting thought...how many engineers, designers, or drafters can now do simple handwriting? Writing a letter, filling out a check, etc.
I have been so conditioned with printing hand drawings for approx 10 years, then working with CAD for almost 20 years.
Recently I needed to write something and forgot how to write certain words and letters!
I was trained a long time ago in ink printing then pencil until I got it perfect. But lost the touch of handwriting.

I will never return to hand drawings. Computers, along with CAD, has changed the world how we used to know it.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ewh]

Interesting class. Free hand drawing is not my strong suit, and I wish that there was a similar course nearby.

As for cursive handwriting, mine looks like a fourth graders, so I can relate with you there Chris. While I can still remember most all of the letters, I am tediously slow. 99.9% of everything I write is in printed form. The only real exception is my signature, and that is illegible (but unique).

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - [small]Thomas Jefferson [/small]