IEC 61850 - 3rd part engineer tools - HELP !!!! 4

[TudaPellini]

The thread thread238-167238 started to discuss the available IEC 61850 engineer tools.
These engineer tools are supposed to act as vendor-independent integrator tools, allowing the specification of the substation topology and its functionalities (SSD file), integrating IEDs ICD files, configuring the IEDs, programming the information exchange between them (GOOSE/MMS) and creating the system SCD file and the IEDs CID files.

Up to now, we found three software tools that are available on line (evaluation versions that could be downloaded):
- Visual SCL from ASE;
- SCL Manager from Kalkitech;
- Helinks STS from Helinks.

Other tools exist, such as:
- Siemens DIGSI, anb;
- ABB IET/CCT.

The question that remains is:
WHAT TOOLS WORKS !?!

We could not test DIGSI or IEC/CCT but the other three supposed solutions (VisualSCL, SCL Manager and Helinks) fail to do their jobs.

Please, tell us your comments and personal experience.

 

[TudaPellini]

To start the discussion, here is our experience with the tools that are available on the internet:

We tested the first three tools mentinoned on the previous post.
It´s umbelievable, but seems that the three tools fails to do their jobs... Or we are terribly wrong on how to use them.

- Visual SCL is "buggy" during the design stage, loosing conectivity nodes and creating a real mess when you start to rename entities (such as breakers, bars, voltage levels, whatever). The tool imports existing ICD files successfully. However, the wizards are too much confusing and the work to prepare Goose messages for horizontal communications is too much difficult (we tried and tried, but we don't understand why and how they are supposed to be created).

- SCL Manager has a better graphical interface for the single line diagram and less bugs. It also imports existing ICD files. However, when we try to create the goose messages between relays, a lot of errors are displayed and the application hangs and crashes painfuly.

- Helinks STS works better that the others. It has SCL (XML) parsers and validators that seem to be very usefull. But, no matter what we try, we cannot import existing ICD files on the IEDs sections. It starts blaming the ICD XML syntax and it does not import the IED. The ICD file was successfully validated by the ONLINE SIEMENS IEC 61850 VALIDATOR TOOL and were successfully imported on the other two softwares.

I know that the instantaneous answer to my question is:
"Read the Manual. Read the standard, etc."
Well, the manuals of the related softwares are horrible. There is no step by step instructions and most of the work are based on try and error approaches.
And the standard, believe me, we read.

 

[slavag]

Hi TudaPellini.
It's very special Q's.
RTFM, it's right, but not always help.
Try for example connect to Kalki support. Of course you need pay for this ( BTW, it's not so expensive).
I don't have expireince with 61850 protocol, but I would liken recommend only one: work with vendor tool: Areva, ABB, GE, SEL, Siemens (depend on your bay controllers or protection).
May be you need pay for SW, but this tool are tested and work.
Good luck
Slava

 

[TudaPellini]

Hi Slavag, thanks for posting.
We´re just considering buying for tech support from one of the companies. However, we don't have a clue about which software tools will do the work correctly. All programs seem to be filled with bugs and inconsistencies. We are even considering to build a quick and dirty software dedicated to our needs.

In fact, we are conducting a research to integrate about 40 protection IEDs from 5 different manufacturers (ABB, Areva, Siemens, GE Multilin and SEL).

Regarding the tools from the manufacturers, we found another problem.
What we heard about is that each manufacturer tools "seems" to be much focused on its own IED´s, and all that interoperability stuff is partially left aside. As we didn't have access to these tools yet, we do not know this for sure.
This is why i started this thread. Which software will save the day ?

Thanks again for the attention.
TudaPellini

 

[slavag]

Hi TudaPellini.
I have some picture with ABB, Areva, Siemens, GE
relays work together. Nice pict., but not more.
Actually I know about only one real project, some big SS in the Germany, were ABB and Siemens operated together.
I'm not believe if today possible build this integration as you think. Only in theory.
I'm not believe, if ABB, Areva, Siemens, GE or SEL send to you real data. Why, I see only one think:
Areva and GE used in the projects not 3-rd party network switch, like to ABB or Siemens ( used Ruggedcom), for me it's indication something not O.K.
Sorry, may be I'm very scepti, but I think you'll need use some additional HW ( gateways from the vendors).
You know, we say: today we have 3 types of eng, HW, SW and PowerPointer.
Regards.
Slava

 

[slavag]

Hello.
US guys.
I heard about some first multivendor project in US with 61850 protocol. Some utilities build new 500kV substation with connection between control and protection by 61850 protocol.
Someone have any information about it .
Thanks.
Best Regards.
Slava

 

[Eleceng01]

Slavag,

Not sure if this is what you were wanting, but SEL has a paper at

http://www.selinc.com/61850/index.htm

for multi-vendor IEC61850 at CFE.

 

[jghrist]

A paper on the first US based multi-vendor IEC61850 substation automation system was presented at last year's Georgia Tech Relay Conference. The station is TVA's Bradley 500 kV Substation. The presentation was prepared by Juregen Holbach and Julio Rodriquez of Siements; Craig Wester and Drew Baigent of GE Multilin; Lars Frisk and Steven Kunsman of ABB; and Luc Hossenlopp of AREVA.

TVA used the Siemens DIGSI software as the software configuration tool.

 

[slavag]

Thanks Jghrist.
I found data, unfortunately it's only common words, nothing technical.
But you stated very important point for me:
"TVA used the Siemens DIGSI software as the software configuration tool". not some 3rd part tool.
Regards.
Slava

 

[slavag]

And additional theoretical Q's after re-reading:
What is benefit put 4 vendors in same substation ( 35 IED's it's all)?
Not better used only one? I stop understand anything.
Slava

 

[TudaPellini]

Hi friends.
Some updates and comments.

We already read the TVA work with DIGSI software. But unfortunately there wasn't further details concerning the configuration procedure.
Later, we talked to Siemens people here in Brazil and we made a first contact with DIGSI software to understand its functionalities.
The DIGSI software works very well to setup the comunications and goose messagens between relays from Siemens and other manufacturers. But ONLY that. For other substation description issues, DIGSI cannot help to much.

*Nowadays we are successfully using the software from Helinks STS. The software is very well supported and is being constantly upgraded. And IT IS FREE AND IT IS GOOD.*

About our test: we are developing a test bench to approve the interoperability of 4 different relays manufacturers supporting IEC 61850. We are using 36 relays (9 from each manufacturer) on this test to simplify our work. The real scenario will probably be the biggest IEC 61850 project to this day, with *2300 IEDs* talking IEC between each other.

Helinks STS is helping us a lot on our tests. We don't know for sure if it could support hundreds or thousands relays. I guess any software could manage that. Probably, we may need to split the project in several pieces anyway.

Greetings to you all.
Pellini

 

[slavag]

Hi.
2300 IED's!!!!! What is it. I'm hope it's region project.
But after your biggest hydrostation ( If I remeber right, about 20GW power), who know.
Gooud Luck at your project.
Regards.
Slava.
PS, I'm allways prefer work with "big" companies, not with 3rd part.

 

[pt389]

Hi Tuda! I've just arrived to this forum and read all about your experience with configuration tools because I'm starting using it too.

I tried SCL Manager from Kalki. Some connections disappear and is quite difficult to use it because, to resize the levels, etc.. However they launched recently a new version. It looks better but crashes several times... The configuration of IEDs is very simple, like you said, but it's not so easy to deal with CBs... The SCL validation fails due to incorrect variable names and other aspects that I had to correct by hand directly in the code ir order to achieve a successful validation.

VSCL from ASE is easier to use (levels do automatic resizing) but the configuration process is more difficult. I'm getting used to it (maybe you can give me some highlights) but I think that first we have to define the DATypes and LNTypes before creating LN instances within the IEDs. With SCLM we don't need to do this because it creates automatically DATypes and LNTypes, but in VSCL we have to do all that by hand.

Helinks from STS does a great job. Initially you said you couldn't import ICDs, don't now if you discovered a way to do that, I only know we can define IEDs like we do with the other tools, and we can create a SCD. However the process is more complex... I like to have access to SCL code, modify it and be able to open the modified one, but with STS I can't open a modified SCD because it deals only with its SLD format(the SCD is generated and saved, not edited).

I've got DIGSI too and I'm going to try it!

 

[pt389]

I forgot to mention, I work in an utility and we're thinking on going directly to pass our actual protection and controls systems specifications to SCL code. I explain:

Till now, we wanted a substation we had to deliver our specs to manufacturers by the traditional way, written in paper, and IEDs were built according to our specs but using proprietary communication protocols, so that traditionally we were pushed to single vendor solutions.

Now, with IEC 61850, we want to take the opportunity to present our specs to manufacturers directly in SCL code. Theoretically, if their products are 61850, they can put our code in their own configuration tools and generate the CID files to their own devices.

Isn't this correct? What do you think about it?

 

[pt389]

Anyone?

 

[TudaPellini]

Hi pt389,

We are using Helinks STS a lot nowadays. The people at Helinks are working a lot to improve the software and to solve bugs. I would recommend you to send them emails about your particular problems. They are very helpful.

Concerning the ICD import procedure, nowadays Helinks STS CAN import ICD files easily. And I agree, it cannot open a SCD file directly as it does when you open its SLD file format. If you have an externally generated SCD file, you cannot open it in a graphical way on Helinks, but you can import and browse its contents and you can edit it directly on XML inside its editing environment.

Concerning your suggestion to send the SCD directly to manufacturers in order to "force" them to fit the IEDs inside *your strict specification*, i think you're right. As the involved file formats (SCD, ICD, CID, etc.) are very complete and easily expandable you can fully specify all IEDs functionalities and details. This scheme is very interesting and a lot of information can be easily exchanged between customers and manufacturers.
Anyway, in this process, I defend the idea that "third-part" software tools should be used by the customers in order to create these specifications. The process should be very manufacturer independent. The customers may focus much more on quality and cost/benefit rather than worrying about the maintenance and impact of proprietary solutions.

Greetings to you all.

 

[pt389]

Hello TudaPellini,

Thanks for your post The problem is that manufacturers typically build their IEDs with predefined functions. As an example, suppose a manufacturer that only builds IEDs with PDIS, PTOC, PIOC, TCTR and TVTR. If I deliver him a SCD with IEDs containing PDIS, PTOC, PIOC, TCTR, TVTR, RREC, XCBR and more, how can he directly implement our demands?

Another two questions I have:

-) how can we define data flow within LNs with SCL? Let's say I have a PDIS instance and want it to receive data from a TCTR and a TVTR instances. How can I define this? Part 6 doesn't specify anything like that and the only reference I saw about this is "external input", in the definition of the IED...

-) how can we define some conditional functionalities in SCL? Suppose I have a substation with 2 different operation modes: one for normal operation and another for special operation (during servicing and maintenance). In normal operation I want automatic reclosing and timed protection functions, but in special operation I want automatic reclosing disabled and protection functions tripping immediately. Can I define these conditions in SCL?



Thank you all for all the help you can give)

 

[slavag]

Hi PT389.
You have answers to your Q.
IEC61850 protocol defined function naming convention, communication, etc, etc.
But it never,never used for protection and control functionality.
I'm not work with this protocol ( on this moment), but according to manuals and one course:
Possible build SCL file from CID files only, bat not in back direction.
As I undrestood from lecture, first of all you must finished your set file ( IED configuration file) and only after this transfer it via ( SET, CET ot what ever) to SCL.
Regards.
Slava

 

[521AB]

There are already sunstations where ABB and Siemens "cooperate" ayt IEC61850.
Some years ago, in the US, an "experiment" was done, succesful:

http://www.pacw.org/no-cache/issue/...or_project_in_the_usa/complete_article/1.html

I have been out of this forum for some months, but now I'm happily back. Hopefully later on I can contribute a bit here.

Bye guys!

 

[slavag]

Hi.
Nice see you again, 521AB.
I hope next time I'll can continue this topic with more
data. We start serious course of 61850, on the next week.
Regards.
Slava