If not an engineer then what (& role of non-PE's) 38

[Binary]

As stated in the "Where's the respect" thread, I'd like to explore a couple of things:
[ol][li]In the view of some PE's, unlicensed engineers are neither professionals nor "real" engineers.
If that's true, then what are we? Many of us have worked far too long and had too much success to be considered interns, apprentices, or trainees. Many of us have graduate degrees and advanced theoretical and applied knowledge. We're something and I'd like to understand what people who hold the "not pro, not real" viewpoint think. [/li]
[li]Related to that is what you believe to be the role of the unlicensed "engineer." Acknowledging that there are many of us working under the industrial exemption, what is our role in the current structure?[/li][/ol]
My view is that we are professionals and we are *real* engineers. (BTW, if I'm not a professional then how come I'm an exempt employee?)

I see the role of the non-PE as doing whatever engineering work needs to be done for which one has the knowledge/skills/experience to do. I see the PE as the one who provides the oversight and approves whatever critical pieces of a project there are.

This is very simplistic, I know, and I'm eagerly awaiting input from those of you who understand this much better than I do.

I sincerely appreciate the time and energy you choose to put into discussing this. I, for one, will benefit greatly from the discourse.

 

[BobPE]

I agree timelord...we are having such a tough time with the laws since industries like microsoft insist on making systems certified engineers after a 6 week part time program. There simply are not enough PE's out there to write the laws or influence politicans...That is why, as rhodie put it, I am on my horse...

Even though you didnt use your PE, I think you could say a door never closed for you because you did not have it....You may not have chose the path that needed it, but you could have....
BobPE

 

[TheTick]

I think part of the problem in this issue is a misunderstanding between CE's and ME/EE's. The CE field has a more well-defined hierarchy of position w.r.t. skill, education and experience. The ME and EE industry fields are so broad that such distinctions can not be readily made across their entire fields.

Certainly, I believe anyone (CE, ME, EE) who wishes to peddle their engineering skill on the open market should be licensed. A large part of this is to ensure the insurability of such individuals, to make sure they are competent to be held liable. However, given the state of industry and education in the U.S., the industrial exemption makes sense. The laws in most states protect employee/engineers from liability regardless of their PE status, so there is no point in licensing rank-and-file ME's and EE's.

As for the competence of non-PE engineers, no one has presented any evidence to prove or even suggest that licensed PE's are any more or less competent than non-licensed exempt engineers. As for me, I am still waiting for one of my esteemed licensed counterparts to evaluate me and determine where I am deficient in my 20 years of experience, 7 years of education, and measured intelligence.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[BobPE]

yikes buzzup and thetick, your horses are bigger than mine...LOL w.r.t.??? nice...just nice...lets not start battling amongst the divisions now LOL...an engineer is an engineer...

Every engineering school is being recruited heavily...there are just not enough engneers out there in the work force and it seems that there are fewer and fewer graduates every year....


BobPE

 

[TheTick]

What I meant was that there are clearer distinctions in CE for the roles of archtects, engineers, designers, and drafters.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[BobPE]

i was just busting you thetick....this post is turning out to be a pretty good one just to talk back and forth....

BobPE

 

[TheTick]

Thanks, Bob. Just trying to be careful. [a la Eric Burdon] "I'm just a man whose intentions are good. Oh, Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood."

 

[poppeye]

OK,OK
As an "Exempt Engineer" I guess you could call me that. I have spent 20+ years in the Navy classified by our U.S. Government as an Engineer. I am licensed in the State of Ohio as "Stationary Engineer". So I guess you in some circles you could call me an Engineer.
But honestly, for some one to be hung up on licensed or not licensed, certified or not certified, it's all a matter of a persons vanity. I have worked with some exceptional PE's and learned volumes from them. Then others that couldn't engineer their way out of a paper sack.
What it all boils down to is doing your homework thoroughly with honesty and integrity. Don't try to B.S. either your employer or customer. I personally perform system flow analysis studies for quite a few companies in the Northern Ohio Region. I never once lead the customer to beleve that I am more than I am qualified for. I always tell the customer that I can get them 95% to where they want to go, but don't have all the letters after my name and will have our PE look over all findings prior to filing my final report. In over 10 years in the private field of engineering, I have never had an unhappy customer over my analysis of systems or equipment.
I have worked for companies that practice un-ethical practices in material substitutions, short cuts and exagerated repair quotations. All for the sake of the mighty margin. Note, I said worked. A person has to have personal integrity and pride in the service they provide their customers and their employers. Without this, your business may prosper for the short term, but you can only cut corners so long until you find your customers looking elsewhere for the quality and integrity they are paying for.
Binary, get past the fact that you may not have the letters after your name, but that does not make you any less valuable as part of an Engineering Team. No single PE can tackle the types of problems facing todays customers. From system analysis, to system correction and repair, it takes all types of engineers to solve these problems. I am very proud to be providing my services to my employer and our customers. Be a part of a team, take pride in the support you provide, and be honest. Just as I respect the PE's in our team, they to respect me for the support that I and my personnel provide.

Clifford Sauer (Poppeye)MMCS(SW)USN Retired
Ohio Stationary Engineers
License #6569U

Well whata you know, I guess I do have letters after my name after all. But that does not make me anything more than what I know I am.

 

[BobPE]

its not a matter of a persons vanity poppeye, if you think it is, then you really dont know what you are talking about....

BobPE

 

[melone]

Or maybe he hit the nail on the head....

 

[BobPE]

i think your right melone.....not everybody gets it, then again not everybody can.....

BobPE

 

[melone]

Let's try not to equate disagreement, with inability to understand. Just because we don't agree, doesn't mean I don't comprehend what you are trying to say. Perhaps we have become bogged down by the particulars of this discusion. Let's look at another example. Does getting a pilot's licence make you a better engineer? Of course not.

Let's look at the arguments for having a governing body for the engineering community:

1) It will keep the knuckleheads out. The only problem I can see with this argument is that the people that are likely to take the test, are the same people that you just graduated with. That implies that they were "smart enough" to pass standardized tests in college / university with enough prep time / work. Why would we expect them to fail this test?

2) The PE society can demand the respect that engineers deserve. Who really cares if a bunch of people that you will never know respect you? That is the empitome of vanity! You EARN respect from the people you work with by being a productive member of the engineering community and workforce.

3) The PE society can keep it's members on the straight and narrow with respect to engineering practices. Get real! Does anybody think that having a license keeps them from cutting corners? How many times has someone broken the law while being a licensed driver? (Be honest ) Does the licensed engineer have more to lose if s/he is careless? Of course. Should that be the reason they double / triple / quadruple check their work? I hope not!

4) The PE license provides flexibility for the future. This is generally the best argument, since it is true. However, I would venture to say that most engineers, (in the private sector, and not relating to public safety) would never need that type of flexibility. Currently, I am in a area (digital design) that will never benefit from having a general license. I might change product lines, engine controllers to consumer electronics, but I will never change specialties, say digital to power distribution. While I think that I am more than capable intellectually, I know that I would never enjoy that field, and would therefore never enter it. (Don't hate me power people. I hate dealing with anything over 12VDC!) Simply put, having the flexability to enter a field that I would never consider, has never been a good argument. Why doesn't everybody get a license to drive a bus. There will always be a need for bus drivers, and if the engineering thing slows down, you still have that opportunity.

Well, I will end my rambling. Once again, please don't equate opposition with lack of understanding. We can all disagree while looking at the same situation.

 

[IRstuff]

Melone,

Your point 3 was well said.

Consider lawyers. They are licensed, take a test that is, relatively speaking, significantly more difficult than the typical PE exam, and have a professional association whose power is probably only second to the AMA. The ABA has the power to vet the president's nominations for appointed offices.

And yet...

TTFN

 

[poppeye]

BobPE,
Binary is obviously hung up over a title. That is vanity. A title does not make a person any better at what they do, than their capabilities or knowledge will allow them to function.
To worry about what others think I am, would just get in the way with doing the job I am paid to do. It would also get in the way of being a cohesive Engineering group providing as service for our customers.
If a person is not happy with their lot in life, or what they do, or what level of professional certification, or licensing, they have the sole power to change it.

Poppeye

 

[BobPE]

poppeye:

YOu make some good points and I appreciate your comments. A PE license is not a title, it is not given to someone by their employer, it is given by a state agency here in the US. THere is a big difference. The license has nothing to do with any societies like malone says, I am not sure he understands what a PE license is. A license does not make a better engineer, but it does say to people that that engineer with a PE meet a certain set of criteria that is recogonized by state agencies. Vanity is wanting a title, a PE is given to someone who takes the tests, wanting to take tests is not vanity. The PE is not to make you look better in someone elses eyes..that is not the point at all.....I appreciate your open mind poppeye, I didnt mean to get you cought up in my conversation with malone...

melone


I work with several engineers, 20 plus years experience, engineering degrees, work experience in consulting, that have been taking the PE since they had 4 years experience. They are great engineers, but cannot pass the test. That tells me something, what does it tell you? ITs a tough test so if you have not taken it, reserve comment on it. Plus, its not a standardized test by the way.....when your job gets shipped overseas, I cant hire you to even put batteries in a project without a PE. You may think limiting your flexibility as an engineer is a good thing, nut I would think a lot of other members would disagree.

IRstuff:

I have three friends with engineering degrees and who have passed the bar. All three say that the PE was more difficult than the bar and that their engineering degree gave them superior tools to tkae the law degree and bar. I am not sure where you got your information from on the bar.


I hope you dont all mind me chatting as a PE, a lot of PE's wouldn't even bother. As a group, PE's are moving on, influencing laws on practice and geting far ahead of our counterparts in industry and government exempt status. I like to remember that these engineers are here and in my ideal world, there is room for them in the ultimate realm of engineering that engineers can achieve. A lot of PE's do not feel the same as I do by the way. You can make a million excuses not to get a PE, but who are you really kidding? I comment so often so that other engineers here can see their way clear to a good thing.

BobPE

 

[phillyboy]

I have been out of the discussions since I didn’t think that I would change any of the non-PE mind. BobPE has been doing a good job in explaining the main reasons why our engineering profession required licensing. At the same time, Melone still putting up a good discussion, especially his last thread. I will try to address each of his point from my point of view.

1. “Why would we expect them to fail this test”. Statistically, many engineers do fail the EIT and PE test, at least in their first attempt. However, many and most do pass them second and subsequent times when they put an honest effort into it. You may think the idea of passing some tests to obtain a license in general equate to noting more than having the right amount of luck and posses good testing skill. Well, I would ask what licenses we hold in the US that do not required an individual to pass some form of test (from the simple driver license to a hunting license we need to hunt)? Better yet, how else can an agency evaluate ones competence without some form of testing? Do you have a better method to test an individual skill without testing? I’m all ears. Also, how many tests have you taken before graduating from your college for your EE degree? Would it be possible, practical or even responsible for colleges to confer a degree to a degree candidate without ever testing him? I only can say that unless you obtained your BSEE without having to take a single test while in college, I don’t see your point of argument. Oh, one more thing, how many of your college classmates known to have cheated in their exams? I guess it’s OK and it’s not fair to say they will certainly become bad engineers but do we really want that in our profession if we are to be respected?

2. I agree, I really don’t care what others think of us engineers let alone if they respect us. That is the point, having a PE doesn’t give an engineer instinct respect as this discussions have already proven. Most of you think the PE license is meaningless, equate to vanity, doesn’t represent one’s competence, etc. However, none really can give a concrete reason why engineers shouldn’t be licensed. Having been in the electrical power industry for the passed 15 years, I honestly can say that been a PE does bring respect from other engineers (PE and non PE). On the other hand, I also notice that, a PE will be more susceptible to scrutiny by his peers if he makes mistake on the job. It is almost certain and expected that his designs, calculations and drawings produced are error free (even though they may not be). Come to think of it, isn’t this is all about; to ensure that the final design produced be as correct and safe as possible? Believe me, stamping a drawing is a scary thing and most PE wouldn’t do it if they are not sure what they are stamping. This is where I believe why licensure works, it is where the “rubber meets the road” and the final certification for correctness before construction.

3. You are again correct, I have observed PE cut corners for all kind of reasons. However, the fact that PE are regulated means that the behavior can be monitored by the State Boards. Those who get caught can be penalized and punished. It is similar to a driver can have their license revoke or suspended for DUI or reckless driving. You can say “so what”, many offenders continue to break the laws but can you imagine the consequences if we don’t have the law in the first place?

4. Well, last I heard, the electrical PE now offers electronic section. Why not try it and hell, having a bus license isn’t all the bad especially with the current economic state. Better yet, I see a lot of engineers going back to school for their law degree and make a run for their “Esq”. What is wrong of having something extra under your belt? I’m sure that you have taken your share of exams while in school, what difficult can two more be? If you ask, what bother going after something you don’t need or use? I can only say for the same reason why engineers going back to school for their MS degree. How many of those really need a MS degree in their job but yet there is a whole industry tailored to make money off of those who are going after something “useless”. There you have it, what is “useless”? Engineers are strange breed of people, we are often going after something we don’t need because we love what we do. In the process, we go after PE license, MS degree and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[Binary]

Poppeye:

I am not "hung up over a title." Some statements have been made by purported PE's that non-licensed people are not engineers nor are they professionals.

As someone who doesn't have a license but does have occasion to work with PE's, and perhaps be interviewed by them, I'm curious as to what the PE's view the role of the non-licensed person.

Understanding where someone's coming from is essential to effective communication and successful relationships.

 

[melone]

1) Any test is better than no test?

2) My name is proudly displayed on EVERYTHING I work on, even if I am not the primary engineer. If there are any questions, I feel that I should be contacted. I was part of the design, and I should be held accountable.

3) It is just sad that people can't be expected to do a good job, simply because it's what they are getting paid to do it.

4) I don't think that I ever said that getting a PE was bad. However, I have only a finite time on this earth, and will do whatever I can to maximize the time I have here. Obtaining the PE license will yield nothing, while costing me time and money.

Also, I generally resist anything that is pushed as hard and fastly as the PE community has been pushing (forgive me, it smacks of the Nazi's when they came into power). Having the PE will not hurt you in any way, but it isn't the savior either.

 

[BobPE]

melone:

who is pushing you to get a PE? We will make it necessary for all engineers to have PE's, that is our goal. A worthy goal I think. If not the PE then what?

You last statement is kinda funny because I equate industry that you work for as Nazi's in power, and the engineers working for it sheep following herd. It's tough to shine the light in on you people in industry, but I try every chance I get becuase I see a bigger picture I guess....

BobPE

 

[patdaly]

BobPe wrote:
"who is pushing you to get a PE? We will make it necessary for all engineers to have PE's, that is our goal. A worthy goal I think. If not the PE then what? "

I believe you answered your own question sir! Perhaps a worthy goal in YOUR eyes, but obviously not to millions of us Non-PE's.
Tell you what, how about we establish a Global PE License, after all, arent we a global community now? I think a worthy goal would be to assure all Engineers are above reproach, not just the US version. Now, for this Global PE, I would say, based upon its level of professionalism, you should have a minimum of a Doctorates, and at least 25 years of EIT, as well as a Mentor/Sponsor in at least 12 different countries that would vouch for you. After eaching this esteemed level in your career, we could then call you an Engineer, a GPE for short. Silly you say? I guess it all depends on who is defecating in your cornflakes as to the level of absurdity, just remember, someone thinks it a "worthy" goal.

 

[BobPE]

patdaly:

it is a worthy goal in OUR eyes (there are a lot of PE's out there if you didn't notice). We influence and right the state laws, if YOU are not involved by not being a PE, WE will make decisions for YOU....like it or not, I am telling you the deal....I like your idea of a global PE, I think that is a great goal, but it has to be approached one step at a time. Maybe YOU will be out of the business by then and it wont affect YOU...

The grapes are not sour guys, just reach for them....

BobPE