If not an engineer then what (& role of non-PE's) 38

[Binary]

As stated in the "Where's the respect" thread, I'd like to explore a couple of things:
[ol][li]In the view of some PE's, unlicensed engineers are neither professionals nor "real" engineers.
If that's true, then what are we? Many of us have worked far too long and had too much success to be considered interns, apprentices, or trainees. Many of us have graduate degrees and advanced theoretical and applied knowledge. We're something and I'd like to understand what people who hold the "not pro, not real" viewpoint think. [/li]
[li]Related to that is what you believe to be the role of the unlicensed "engineer." Acknowledging that there are many of us working under the industrial exemption, what is our role in the current structure?[/li][/ol]
My view is that we are professionals and we are *real* engineers. (BTW, if I'm not a professional then how come I'm an exempt employee?)

I see the role of the non-PE as doing whatever engineering work needs to be done for which one has the knowledge/skills/experience to do. I see the PE as the one who provides the oversight and approves whatever critical pieces of a project there are.

This is very simplistic, I know, and I'm eagerly awaiting input from those of you who understand this much better than I do.

I sincerely appreciate the time and energy you choose to put into discussing this. I, for one, will benefit greatly from the discourse.

 

[electricpete]

buzz - Apples and oranges?
Why is the chiropractor with optional license requirement different than the exempt engineer who has a choice whether to pursue licensing?

"The references on the engineers resume would hold way more weight than a piece of paper."
Right. Just pick of the phone. Companies are jumping for the opportunity to put themselves atr legal risk in order to give a bad recommendation for an ex-employee.

 

[buzzp]

I was referring to your comparison of choosing a licensed chiro vs. non licensed chiro and licensed eng vs. non licensed. Apples and oranges.

As far as companies giving bad referrences, it happens all the time. How would the applicant know? Sure some cases he/she may but in most cases it is not going to happen. Managers pry all the time and get info out of tightly written policies. I know because I have done it. If you think a policy is going to stop this then your mistaken. Some cases it will but not all.

You know in all of this discussion of PE and non-PE I am reaching the conclusion that some PE's are clueless when it comes to exempt positions and some are even more arrogant than Bill Clinton.

 

[electricpete]

You have stated in response to my question regarding PE for an exempt position:
"PE or no PE would not make any difference in a candidate. If they had equal everything (extremely rare) then it would be a coin toss"

In attempt to explore this statement by posing the optionally-licensed chiropractor analogy, I get no response, other than that you personally consider it apples and oranges. I conclude you stand by your position. I happen to disagree. Given your most recent post, I am happy to agree to disagree and move on to more productive conversations.

 

[buzzp]

Good.
Because no two candidates would have the exact same everything and there would be other indicators for the best qualified for the exempt position other than a PE vs non-PE. So I would not have to get out my trusty coin.

 

[electricpete]

You have the last word, my friend.

 

[buzzp]

Thanks. I never get the last word. We will see how long it lasts. Thanks to all for mostly good discussions. I have learned some.

 

[brad]

Sorry buzzp; I've been out for a few days so couldn't acknowledge electricpete's (I think) great metaphor.

I agree with Pete's metaphor entirely. All else equal, and for the same price, an "official" chiropractor's license would win me over. This is completely apples-to-apples with exempt positions for engineers.

As soon as somebody says "all else equal", and adds that one candidate has one thing above the other, things are no longer equal. Now if the PE salary demand is 25% higher than the non-PE's demand, suddenly this discrepancy must be weighed against the other discrepancy (PE vs. none). But if they are the same in salary and every other way, can't we acknowledge that a PE has some intrinsic value (even in exempt)?? To suggest otherwise seems bizarre to me.

buzzp--I hope your comments as to PEs' arrogance were not directed at me; I've tried to appreciate both sets of arguments and coherently speak my view. If I've insulted, my apologies. Frankly, I've seen people on both sides of this issue being less-than-civil, which is a shame. I think we should all endeavor to disagree more civilly. Leave the character assassinations to lawyers and politicians (tongue-in-cheek, so nobody accuses me of lawyer-bashing).

(Note buzzp, that this statement is NOT directed against you, just a comment motivated by yours).

Brad

 

[IRstuff]

re electric pete's posting from Aug 10, 2003 about my Jul 8, 2003 posting:

My comment refers to the plain simple fact that licenses, both drivers and doctors, for that matter, do not ensure excellence or even competence.

I would likewise ignore a PE license when interviewing, as I don't know how that relates to the ability to simple crank the numbers or truly engineer. Similarly, a PE license tells me nothing about the ability of the applicant to think on their feet, see the big picture, be flexible, think outside the box, etc.

TTFN

 

[Binary]

My belief is that licensing is more about accountability than evaluating competence - though the various professional exams do attempt to establish a minimum level of knowledge. Of course, knowledge does not guarantee competence; competence, though, does mandate knowledge.

 

[ClydeMule]

Like this thread needs another post...

The only thing a PE does is to legally allow you to offer engineering services to the general public. That's it. Oh, and it also limits you abilty to use certain titles, if you offer you services to the public. I am in CA. The confusion between PE and non PE comes about in the Mechanical, Electrical, and other disciplines. The are the disciplines where there use is found more often in private industry than in public use. In terms of mechanical engineering, I would say that most of it has nothing to do with engineering in the public realm. The public stuff is pumps and HVAC.

Take Civil, Structural, and Geotechnical. Almost all of this engineering is for public projects, so a higher percentage are probably licenses (just a guess though).

This is why in California we are licensed under the consumer board of affairs like barbers.

So, to answer the originial post, I would rearrange your question to ask what is the role of PE's? Non licnesed engineers are what drive the engineering industry. Licensed engineers are the execption not the rule. That does vary however, with the discipline.

THe idea of expemption, I think that comes more from the process of gaining licensure more than anything else. The state realizes that unless you work for a consulting firm there are not going to be many PE's if any at a given business. I was the only degreed engineer when I started at my current job, and one of three people that even had a college degree. Most of my references were vendors of mine. 2 were PE's, 2 were not. Neither of the PE's even practiced. The state raised no questions about my references.

I have gotten grief from PE's before, but only because in my business (HVAC/R) you cross over into the public realm. I am the chief engineer, and I will be discussing something with and engineer (PE) and they will say I need to speak with a "real" engineer. That has happened only twice. Both of these guys were knuckleheads. THe more some guy starts waving his PE in you face the more likely it is that he is an idiot. Refer to BobPE talking about vanity. Good point there.

I got my PE becuase I have considered going into consulting on my own, and I am only a couple years out of school so going back over the material was not too hard. In fact, the whole affair was not really that difficult. I just figured, what the hell, it only cost $175 for the test and $150 for some reference books that I still use.


Clyde

 

[buzzp]

No offense taken hear, bradh. I have nothing further to add at this point (until someone bashes exempts again, hehe).