If not an engineer then what (& role of non-PE's) 38

[Binary]

As stated in the "Where's the respect" thread, I'd like to explore a couple of things:
[ol][li]In the view of some PE's, unlicensed engineers are neither professionals nor "real" engineers.
If that's true, then what are we? Many of us have worked far too long and had too much success to be considered interns, apprentices, or trainees. Many of us have graduate degrees and advanced theoretical and applied knowledge. We're something and I'd like to understand what people who hold the "not pro, not real" viewpoint think. [/li]
[li]Related to that is what you believe to be the role of the unlicensed "engineer." Acknowledging that there are many of us working under the industrial exemption, what is our role in the current structure?[/li][/ol]
My view is that we are professionals and we are *real* engineers. (BTW, if I'm not a professional then how come I'm an exempt employee?)

I see the role of the non-PE as doing whatever engineering work needs to be done for which one has the knowledge/skills/experience to do. I see the PE as the one who provides the oversight and approves whatever critical pieces of a project there are.

This is very simplistic, I know, and I'm eagerly awaiting input from those of you who understand this much better than I do.

I sincerely appreciate the time and energy you choose to put into discussing this. I, for one, will benefit greatly from the discourse.

 

[electricpete]

buzz - You say if you had two equally qualified candidates except for the presence of PE, you would flip a coin. I find that an amazing comment. You place no value in the fact that the fact that PE brings independetnly verified experience, verified knowledge, and verified character? You would prefer to go by what the candidate says he has done, what the candidate says he knows and what kind of guy he acts like during short interview? The PE is one of the few substantial pieces of information that comes to you from a source other than the candidate himself/herself. To ignore it would be foolhardy IMHO.

I don't agree to add number 4 to my list of reasons one would not have a PE. Think of that employer in exempt industry evaluating those two candidates. Why does one of them not have a PE? One of those three reasons.

They are worded a little harshly to emphasize how they might be viewed in a negative light. Read the words I think you'll agree it has to be one of those three reasons... you just might not agree with the tone.

You deliberately choose not to take PE because for possibly legitimate reasons you believe it doesn't benefits you personally... that's #2.

You can't find references because there aren't any... that's #1.

I have worked in 3 different job in exempt industries over the course of 11 years. I have never worked in a group that didn't have other PE's.... about 20% or more of the total engineer population. So based on my own very limited personal experience, if someone told me they didn't have a PE because couldn't find references, then I would be inclined to suspect they had some other reason for not getting PE like maybe they can't pass the test. I'm not saying that's the truth... but that is how it will look to some people.

 

[GregLocock]

You aren't presenting a zero sum scenario.

Presumably getting a PE requires some effort and some cost.

If so the other candidate will have done something with those resources. If he sat at home and watched TV I agree the PE is likely to come across better. If the non-PE went out and socialised with non-engineers or did something interesting then it is a coin toss as to who would interview better.

As I said in my previous post, when interviewing, I usually ignore referees, so a PE's references will get ignored. I ignore membership of professional bodies, so I won't even know that a candidate has one.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[BobPE]

electricpete made some good arguments GregLocock, your arguments are pretty weak. I can understand if you simply don't know anything about licensure, but then simply say that....

BobPE

 

[GregLocock]

so answer the argument instead of 'assessing' its strength.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[Binary]

electricpete, why would you make such an assumption ("if someone told me they didn't have a PE because couldn't find references, then I would be inclined to suspect they had some other reason for not getting PE like maybe they can't pass the test&quot relying on your admittedly very limited experience?

To me, good engineers are very reluctant to draw broad conclusions based on scant data.

I maintain that a significant piece of why the profession is in disarray has been well-evidenced in this and related threads. There's a great deal of discord and "us and them" thinking within the profession.

 

[electricpete]

Binary
Within my world (which is exempt BTW), there is no shortage of PE's for references.

Therefore I wrote "So from my limited experience...."

I closed with "I'm not saying that's the truth, but that is how it will look to some people"

There are many different points being made by different people. The one I was trying to make was only about appearances. Maybe it really is not worth my arguing any more, since it seems easily confused as an opinion that we can draw any legimiate conclusion by the fact that someone doesn't have a PE, which I never said.

Did anyone notice what the frog was typing?

Like your handle btw. I saw some one's and zero's at the end of a post and couldn't figure out the significance. Any special meaning?

 

[Binary]

Electricpete, I was not challenging the "that's the truth, but that is how it will look to some people" part; I was challenging your personal viewpoint stated as "would be inclined to suspect ... maybe they can't pass the test".

WRT the 1's and 0's, it has a bit of personal significance but is mostly meaningless...

 

[electricpete]

OK, just for clarify, the whole paragraph:

"I have worked in 3 different job in exempt industries over the course of 11 years. I have never worked in a group that didn't have other PE's.... about 20% or more of the total engineer population. So based on my own very limited personal experience, if someone told me they didn't have a PE because couldn't find references, then I would be inclined to suspect they had some other reason for not getting PE like maybe they can't pass the test. I'm not saying that's the truth... but that is how it will look to some people."

I think there are enough clarifiers in there that I am not going out on a limb.
#1 - it is based upon my own limited experience.
#2 - I would be inclined to suspect.... notice I never said I would conclude!

There are enough weasel words in there to allow me to firmly say "I stand by my statement."
(where's my weasel gif when I need it?)

 

[Binary]

electricpete, you're right - you did not say you would conclude. Nice use of the "weasel words" ;-) Way to stand firm.

Seriously, though, at least in my case, the combination of not working for PE's and the economy causing me to job hop, prevents me from taking the test. I'm pretty sure I could pass it but I can't find out.

I would encourage you to at hold your suspicions in abeyance until you've had the chance to ascertain for yourself whether the person in question could or couldn't pass the test.

From your posts, I suspect that's what you'd do anyway.

ps - Let me know when you find that weasel gif!! ;-)

 

[leanne]

Ack...gremlins stole some of my words I typed...

I did a search of the TX PE database. I searched by employer (my current/past employers & my alma mater as an employer) & in my home town(s) to see if there were any I recognized names from church.

It turns out I actually know few PEs in Texas.

Two profs for one course each in college. Should I ask a prof to vouch for me on a PE app when he has no personal knowledge of my work experience & more than likely does not remember me considering the time that has passed?

Four that I've worked with or for (1 ME, 2 ChemE, 1 IE - I'm EE) & technically, should they validate my work?

The rest of them I see a few times/year - at funerals & family reunions. I won't even ask the validation question on this one....

I'm not just about finding RPE recs...Maybe after a year or so of active participation in here, some of you PEs will know of me well enough to write a rec

 

[electricpete]

Leanne,
I would think the Prof's would not help much. Use them only if you can't find anyone you worked with.

I would think the people who worked in your company would help, even if they did not work closely with you. At least if they are familiar with your job title and the organization functional roles, they may have some limited ability to validate your SER.

Someone mentioned the boards may be flexible. But you still need to meet the minimum requirements for 3 PE's. . Since you have 4 to choose I would call to ask if they were willing and get a feeling which 3 are best willing to cooperate. Once the process begins you will have to keep in contact with your chosen references anyway to make sure they follow the timetable.

Since the PE's haven't worked closely with you, it will help to get references from no-PE's who have worked very closely with you.

Binary
I was going to argue a little more to explain exactly what those words meant but it seems it would be counterproductive since I see you already let me off the hook. But two things really need to be said: #1 - I am by no means talking about a specific person in the forum. #2 -It is all part of a resonse to someone who suggested there is no value for a non-exempt getting a PE.

I found that weasel gif but it's too big to post.

Nobody noticed what the frog is typing?

 

[Binary]

electricpete, let me in on the frog. On my screen he's not typing at all, just sitting and staring at a blank screen.

 

[electricpete]

PE flashes across the screen for about 457 milliseconds once every 5 seconds. But you have to watch carefully. Or maybe that animated gif doesn't work with all software.

 

[leanne]

pete, I agree on the profs...I'm starting grad school next Spring from scratch again (it's been over 7 years so I lose 3 classes of Master's level coursework) after I take my CQE (12/03) & CQA (10/03) exams. Maybe I'll be able to cultivate the profs I once knew or some new prof contacts that would be willing to write a rec.

All four of the PEs I've worked with or for were many years ago. I'm going to approach them, but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch either.

I can see what the frog's typing - it looks like he's writing "PET ME" but the computer gremlins did something with the last three letters

 

[electricpete]

Aha! I always thought it was peculiar that he would be typing PE. Your explanation makes a little more sense.

One more thing about the Texas PE search feature... the company names can be entered in a variety of ways. They took my employer's name and shortened it by removing a key word. Others at the same company have the company name slightly different in the database. So one search does not reveal all the PE's at our company. With little trial and error I was able to find the others (with the benefit of knowing the names I was looking for). I'm not sure if they have some kind of wild-card character to cope with names that don't match exactly.

 

[MRM]

Maybe it's true that most other professions do not require 4 years of experience before licensing, but the engineering field has the potential to cause the most harm, hands down. Therefore, the four years is justified prior to becoming licensed. To me it’s an absolute minimum and probably a little on the light side. There is a lot of potential for bad things to happen both from a loss of life and an economic standpoint. Look at the big power outage here a few days ago. You can bet there was an economic loss. Now granted the choices that led to the decision not to upgrade the system a while back may have been more of a management decision than an engineering mistake, but I think you get the point.

Why don't we just say that the EIT will "count" for being officially licensed? For the same reasons I've already alluded to. You typically take the EIT during your third or fourth year of college. What did you know at that time? I'll bet not as much as you know now!

I never realized that there were states that a chiropractor could practice unlicensed! I would never want anyone without some proof of experience/knowledge to crack all my pesky neck vertebrators!! It sounds like those are some states that need some license restructuring in those areas as well...

 

[electricpete]

Greg and buzz.

Imagine that chiropractor license is optional in your state. Two competing chiropractors across the street from each other. You talk to the chiropractors and both seem cheerful and responsive and say they have been in business for 10 years. You talk to one or two clients each and no complaints. From the logic you have expressed above, I would assume that neither of you would pay any attention at all to the license, right?

 

[ietech]

BobPE

I am not a PE but I have been following this thread with GREAT interest. I would like to know what State, County, City, Township or whatever --- would have it's courts limited by laws restricting it's ability to subpoena any person it deems necessary. Please state the statute, law or court order creating this restriction on American courts. Please give exact wording or direct me to references.

ietech

 

[electricpete]

It is considered practice of engineering and regulated under professional engineering law.

For the state of Texas:

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/downloads/laws.htm

'Section 2. DEFINITIONS. As used in this Act the term:
...
(4) "Practice of engineering" or "practice of professional engineering" shall mean any service or creative work, either public or private, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training or experience in the application of special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences to such services or creative work.

To the extent the following services or types of creative work meet this definition, the term includes consultation, investigation, evaluation, analysis, planning, engineering for program management, providing an expert engineering opinion or testimony, engineering for testing or evaluating materials for construction and other engineering uses...'

I learned that reading eng-tips.

 

[buzzp]

Boy I have missed alot since I've been gone. My point about a PE and non-PE interviewees was in reference to an exempt position. This is apples and oranges when comparing this to a chiropractic (spelling?).

I just have to disagree with your reasoning on this Electricpete (in reference to your comparison on PE vs Non-PE interviewees). The references on the engineers resume would hold way more weight than a piece of paper. Now if were talking a consulting company, then obviously a PE would be beneficial.