Illinois SE Application Deferral

[WiSEiwish]

This one is for the non-Illinois based SEs who have applied for the Illinois SE license less than 8 years after graduating college with a BSE degree.

Has anyone ever been deferred because of issues with their transcript? I recently was deferred, although am protesting, because my transcript did not have enough structural design courses. I was 8 credit hours short. This surprised me because I had attended a major midwestern (Big Ten) public school that was ABET accredited. The last thing I expected to be an issue was my transcript.

In looking at the requirements for my degree (BSE in Civil Engineering) everything is pretty much set in stone save 3 technical electives (9 credit hours) where I have a choice. I spent 6 of the 9 hours on structural engineering courses and 3 on a water resources course. If I had a redo I would take all 9 in structural, but that is beside the point. Given the fact that I was apparently 8 hours short to meet Illinois standards the extra 3 hours wouldn't have helped.

Given the very restrictive course choices, it would really be impossible to become an SE in Illinois without taking some post-graduate courses. I was unaware of any MS requirements for Illinois. If my protest works then all is well and good, but if it doesn't I'm left with the option of taking 8 semester hours of structural design courses (something I'm not opposed to but don't have the time and money for) or work another 18 months to get to 8 years of experience.

Any empathy out there? Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation?

 

[delagina]

I read an architect can stamp structure drawings in Illinois but not a PE civil.

 

[KootK]

This happened to me too. The issue was confusion over the difference between how my school counted credit hours and how IL counts them. Using my masters coursework to make up the difference was easier than trying to win that argument so that's what I did. Fortunately, they were willing to accept non-ABET accredited coursework. Technically, there's no such thing as an ABET accredited M.Sc. program

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[mike20793]

Do concrete, steel, masonry, and wood design classes count?

 

[WiSEiwish]

They counted my RC and Steel design courses, so I'd assume both masonry and wood would count as well. Of the 128 credit hours that was required for my Civil Engineering degree, only 3 courses were deemed "structural analysis and design" courses.

 

[NOLAENG]

I have no experience in Illinois but those requirements seem odd to me.
So a PE or SE license from other states do not count towards missing undergraduate courses?
If so, that is ridiculous to me.
I could understand if someone had no background in structural design.
For me, I learned more in my first couple years working than I did for all of my undergraduate courses.
What's next, deciding which schools count?

All of these rules between the different states are confusing and hard to understand.
From what I've heard about the SE exam, I doubt many people are lucking their way through that exam and should be competent structural engineers.

Why aren't the requirements:
Did you graduate from an ABET accredited school? Check
Do you have a clean background? Check
Do you have experience practicing engineering under a licensed professional? Check
Do you have licensed professional engineering references? Check
Did you pass the NATIONAL exam? Check

Congratulations, you are now a licensed professional.

 

[canwesteng]

I do not envy structural engineers south of the border... It really should be done like it is in Canada.

 

[WiSEiwish]

This is directly from the application.
"If you are a graduate of an approved engineering curriculum, 4 years of structural engineering experience is required. An approved engineering curriculum shall include a minimum of 18 semester hours (27 quarter hours) of structural analysis behavior and design courses. A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design."
ABET is not mentioned in the application, but it is the most common school accreditation. From the above quote it seems that Illinois chooses acceptable schools based on their own criteria. Unfortunately, as of right now, it doesn't seem that The University of Michigan is approved.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

This is likely the issue:

Each applicant shall have passed a minimum of 18 semester hours of courses in the analysis, behavior, and design of structural elements and systems. These courses may include, but not be limited to:

1) Structural analysis courses such as determinate and indeterminate structures and stability; and

2) A minimum of 9 semester hours are required in structural design courses that may include structural steel, reinforced concrete, prestressed concrete, foundation, masonry and wood engineering.

3) Courses such as mechanics (statics and dynamics), mechanics of materials, properties of materials, and soil mechanics shall not be included in the minimum 18 semester hours.


From here:

http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068014800001100R.html

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.

http://www.fepc.us

(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Note that I think the 3rd note is absolute garbage. Why the heck does materials, soil mechanics, and statics not count?! They are fundamental structural engineering courses and are also practically required to be known for the SE exam.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.

http://www.fepc.us

(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

 

[BS2]

It looks like they are trying to differentiate the SE requirements from the typical engineering degree. Almost all engineers take statics, dynamics, mechanics of materials, and soils. What they are saying is: SE's need to have structural specific design courses.

 

[WiSEiwish]

The issue I'm having is that my civil engineering degree from a highly respected engineering school is somehow inadequate for what they require. There is then an implicit requirement of post-graduate coursework because once all the required courses are taken there isn't room to meet Illinois' requirements. What undergrad degree in this country meets that criteria?

I agree that the third requirement is ridiculous because, as you said, those are fundamental to the structural engineering profession. It looks like, given that, my protest will probably be denied and I'll have to wait another year and a half to be able to get my license.

This is incredibly frustrating. I spent about a year and a half preparing for, taking, and passing the SE exam and now that the test is behind me I have to wait another year and a half before I can get my license.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Your issue PE2012 is precisely why I support the SE license/exam while simultaneously do not support anything that requires extra years of experience, post-grad course-work, or other "time wasting" efforts to get a PE/SE license. A BS with emphasis on structural engineering courses, 4 years experience, and passing the rigorous SE exam should be all the qualifications you require to get an SE. Maybe throw a state specific test in for flavor if it makes sense.

...Though something tells me I'm preaching to the choir here.

Maybe if enough of us protest we can get the board to revise the rules? Seems like a long shot, though. I have almost zero skin in this one being in Maine but I don't want to see note 3 become the standard for SE license on the East coast and might just get the IL SE just to have it on my resume.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.

http://www.fepc.us

(Just passed the 16-hour SE exam, woohoo!)

 

[WiSEiwish]

This probably is in the wrong forum, but I think it is a combination of Civil Engineering degrees being too broad a the undergraduate level because civil engineering is a very broad topic and states (maybe just Illinois) being overly restrictive.

 

[KootK]

Exactly right PE2012. My firm once hired a fellow that somehow graduated without a single course in steel design. He hadn't even heard of lateral torsional buckling etc.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[TXStructural]

Illinois has a history of making it difficult for out of state engineers to work there. I had a senior engineer who had a masters from U Texas but his undergrad was from Mexico. We was/is one of the best engineers I know and spoke English as well as I do (and my mom was a English teacher.) They required him to take the TOEFL, even with licenses in multiple states and many years of practice in the US.
Yes, national licensure would be the best way to go, but it is usually about money and control, not safety.

 

[Archie264]

Milton Friedman's PhD dissertation was on the topic of professional licensure and he summarizes it clearly and succinctly in Chapter 9 of his excellent book, "Capitalism and Freedom".

If interested, here's a short video of him discussing the topic with physicians at the Mayo Clinic. Link

 

[WiSEiwish]

I am very hesitant about the idea of national licenses. Changing licensing requirements on the national level would be much more cumbersome than on the state level. I'd rather have a few bad apples than a bad tree. We have national exams and I think that helps standardize things.

I felt quite unequipped coming out of college, but a few years of experience changed that quite a bit. That being said, the curriculum on the undergraduate level is in serious need of revision. I don't know if you can legitimize a Civil Engineering degree with so many different internal disciplines. You can probably make the case for numerous stand-alone degrees from within the broad civil umbrella.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Nice video Archie. I personally would take monopoly of licensure by an entity vs. unlicensed practice (engineering, medical, or otherwise).

I also agree with PE2012 about national licenses vs national exams.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer.

http://www.fepc.us

 

[WiSEiwish]

I think what Friedman was getting at wasn't necessarily unlicensed practice but rather eliminating monopolies on licensing. I think licensing is a good idea because it can convey a general idea of a minimum level of competency though there are always exceptions. Perhaps organizations like ASCE, NCEES, NSPE, SEA-(insert state here) could provide their own licenses. I'd imagine that there would be a move toward a standardized test across state lines at least. Insurance companies could base their rates on qualifications of the design/construction team. Just ideas.

I should hear back in a couple weeks regarding the application...fingers crossed.